Clutch Slipping Per Dealer 2019 RT - does this sound right??

[dg110270]

My 2019 RT SE6 with 27,000 miles on it is at the dealer for a symptom I would call surging when pulling away from my garage in the morning. I ride 35 miles to my first stop and turn it off. The rest of that ride after multiple stop and go or stop to eat the trike is ok. The dealer is telling me that the cutches are slipping and may need replacing at $650 labor plus parts. The oil level is ok and fresh. I always warm the trike up before pulling away in the morning. Clutches are under warranty so this will be an expensive bill to me. I would be glad to hear the forums opinion.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

My 2019 RT SE6 with 27,000 miles on it is at the dealer for a symptom I would call surging when pulling away from my garage in the morning. I ride 35 miles to my first stop and turn it off. The rest of that ride after multiple stop and go or stop to eat the trike is ok. The dealer is telling me that the cutches are slipping and may need replacing at $650 labor plus parts. The oil level is ok and fresh. I always warm the trike up before pulling away in the morning. Clutches are under warranty so this will be an expensive bill to me. I would be glad to hear the forums opinion.

" May be slipping " ..... OR .." may be ripping you off " ..... If you have always used the CORRECT type of oil and filled it correctly ... I find the dealers claim to be dubious at BEST ..... If the dealer is GUESSING by a diagnosis Over the phone ??? ... I think " dubious could be changed to B.S. ..... I have a 14 RT -SE and w/ over 66,000mi. and have at least 50 hard runs at a DRAG track , my clutch is fine ...JMHO .... good luck .... Mike

[P.W.]

We also have a 2019 RT SE6 with a slipping tranny, but with only 10k miles on the bike. While riding down the road at a steady speed all of a sudden I can hear the bike pick up RPM's and when I look down at the tach it defiantly does pick up a couple hundred RPM ..... just for a second or two, then it seems that the clutch "hooks" back up. Sometimes we can ride all day and it doesn't happen, other times it happens a couple of times in 50 miles???? Went to dealer but it's to sporadic for them to figure out. I guess we'll ride it until it fully goes out .... just hope it's not when on vacation some place.
If you figure it out, please give me a shout on what's going on?

Take Care,
PW

[BertRemington]

The SE6 is a fairly complex transmission say around 1990s automatic transmission technology level. And it uses a carefully modulated pressure to engage the motorcycle-style multi-plate clutch.

First, if you don't have a service manual, buy one and read the relevant sections -- there are several.

Second, to establish a lubrication baseline change your oil and both filters using BRP parts and lubricant. Another member opened his HCM filter -- I've lost his post but you should search for it. It included pictures so you know what to expect.

Third, check with your dealer to confirm you have the latest ECU and TCM firmware; that it is not corrupted; and to reset the long-term trim values.

And then see what you can learn from my thread https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...tul-7100-15W50

[P.W.]

While at the dealer last spring they did update the tranny firmwear.
I can tell you this all started when I went to to other oils and away from BRP oil..... Lamonsters oil and now Redline both have "slipped" never a problem with BPR.
I have changed both filters and It didn't seem to help.
I guess I need to go back to BRP oil and see what happens.

P.W.

[BertRemington]

PW -- here's another lubrication compatibility test.

1. Leave your Spyder overnight (two or three are better) without a battery tender.

2. First thing in the morning, without your helmet on and with the parking brake on, start your Spyder and then turn the handlebars full-sweep. Do you hear a faint chirp-chirp? If so, that's the alternator clutch and you really do need to use BRP 5W40.

This test puts a battery charging + DPS load on the alternator clutch and if there's any lubricity problems this will help find them.

[P.W.]

Just ordered a BRP Oil change kit from amazon.......will change the oil back to BRP and see what happens when the riding season begins.
Maybe my tanny doesn't like full syn oil???? But I know my problem all started when I got away from BRP oil.
Also, I'll do the test you suggest.

THANKS,
PW

[BertRemington]

PW -- you have an awesomely well-curated selection of farkles (I'm envious) including the Wick-It tune.

Due to the interactions between the ECU and TCM via CANbus, etc perhaps Wick-It might be able to offer an upgrade that increases the transmission line pressure. BRP might have reduced it in the 2019+ models for smoother shifting leaving little margin for synthetic oil lubricity.

[EdMat]

My 2019 RT SE6 with 27,000 miles on it is at the dealer for a symptom I would call surging when pulling away from my garage in the morning.

It sounds more like the typical cold engine start off. Try letting it warm up for 10 minutes and I bet it doesn’t happen. Or just start off at 1/4 throttle to get past the cold stumble.

[P.W.]

Edmat,
My slippage that I talk about can, and has happened hours into a ride ...... completely random when the oil is hot.
I know this is rare because there isn't much info here and I believe some think it's in my head ..... but it's not.
I'm going back to BRP oil this week and see if it helps out.

[P.W.]

PW -- you have an awesomely well-curated selection of farkles (I'm envious) including the Wick-It tune......

Thanks for the compliment! I really like the way it turned out,

PW

[P.W.]

dg110270,
Sorry for highjacking your thread! But there may be some useful info in this for you as well.

[BertRemington]

dg110270 -- the shift issue you describe sounds more like "automatic transmission shift flare". Here's an example article https://www.ipdusa.com/Articles/678/...r%20engagement.

If the article is applicable to your issue, the good news is you don't have to replace the clutch plates. The bad news is you have to replace the HCM (it apparently isn't repairable).

From the 2014 Service Manual

The gear shifting and clutch clamping system of the SE6 engine is map-controlled by the transmission control module (TCM).

The transmission control module (TCM) manages 4 solenoid valves located on the hydraulic control module (HCM).

These solenoid valves command pilot pressure to actuate spool valves which are installed inside the HCM. The spool valves allow opening and closing of connections between hydraulic channels by using longitudinal control forces.

Unless your engine/transmission oil was contaminated somehow thereby wearing the spool valves, I think replacing the HCM is many miles and years in your future.

However you describe the issue as "surge" which sounds more like an engine rather than transmission issue.

So here's the question: at what RPM does your clutch begin to engage for pulling away from your garage and at what RPM does your clutch begin to engage after your 35 mile ride?

If they are about the same RPM then it's more likely an engine issue. Otherwise a transmission issue in which case start with my first post in this thread.

If you read my thread, my first-of-the-morning shifts were butter smooth (I pretty much drive away shortly after starting the motor) but when the engine heated up I would occasionally observe upshift flare and harsh downshifts. Switching to Motul 7100 15W50 helped immensely but I am not recommending that as your solution.

PS I don't have cold engine stumble. The 1330cc engine is a sweetie.

[dg110270]

Thanks guys for your opinions. My gut tells me it’s not the clutch. I’ll ask dealer for any firmware updates. I’ve been using Amsoil and maybe should experiment and go back to BRP.

[Wahrsuul]

So from reading your first post, this "slippage" or "surging" only happens at first take off? Mine's been doing that for a while - possibly from when I first got it. I've been using Amsoil change kits from Baja Ron since I got it. Maybe I should try the BRP oil and see if that makes a difference, but for the most part I haven't worried about it.

BRP oil is XPS I think?

The engine isn't stumbling, it really feels like you're slipping a manual clutch. Usually surges 2-3 times then runs fine.

My tryke came to me with about 30k on it. Since I didn't know what the PO might have done, I replace the HCM (along with other stuff). That was about 8k ago so it's still plenty good and not likely the issue Supposed to be done around the 28k mark if I recall so yours might need doing soon.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

So from reading your first post, this "slippage" or "surging" only happens at first take off? Mine's been doing that for a while - possibly from when I first got it. I've been using Amsoil change kits from Baja Ron since I got it. Maybe I should try the BRP oil and see if that makes a difference, but for the most part I haven't worried about it.

BRP oil is XPS I think?

The engine isn't stumbling, it really feels like you're slipping a manual clutch. Usually surges 2-3 times then runs fine.

My tryke came to me with about 30k on it. Since I didn't know what the PO might have done, I replace the HCM (along with other stuff). That was about 8k ago so it's still plenty good and not likely the issue Supposed to be done around the 28k mark if I recall so yours might need doing soon.

" BRP " oil...... ........BRP doesn't make OIL .... they market their own Brand which is made by one of the major oil companies ( I forget which one ) ..... but this I can tell you the BRP oil is not Magical, it's just more expensive ..... lots of other branded oil meets and sometimes exceeds the specs of the BRP .... JMHO .... Mike

[P.W.]

I would agree 100% with you and I don't think its going to fix my problem......but I going to go back to BRP oil to eliminate the possibility. Because mine started slipping as soon as I went to another oil......not sure why.

[RTWolfie]

I would agree 100% with you and I don't think its going to fix my problem......but I going to go back to BRP oil to eliminate the possibility. Because mine started slipping as soon as I went to another oil......not sure why.

Did you ever figure this out? I have a 2019 RT-L with 19,000K that just started doing this. 6th gear on the highway about 105kph the first time and 95kph the second. Revs would jump just for second and then return to normal. Both times it did it once, and then again about 10 seconds later, then fine for the rest of the trip. Did your dealer find anything? I'm running the stock BRP oil in my Spyder and it has always been dealer serviced.

[K80Shooter]

Did you ever figure this out? I have a 2019 RT-L with 19,000K that just started doing this. 6th gear on the highway about 105kph the first time and 95kph the second. Revs would jump just for second and then return to normal. Both times it did it once, and then again about 10 seconds later, then fine for the rest of the trip. Did your dealer find anything? I'm running the stock BRP oil in my Spyder and it has always been dealer serviced.

PW has not been on since 12-1-22 so I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for an answer.

[BajaRon]

There are 2 things that will kill the Electric Shift clutch.

1- Lugging the engine. Upshifting and riding at too low an RPM
2- The wrong oil. (A product which is not JASO rated MA2)

Free of these 2 issues. The clutch should last the life of the engine.

Shifting is controlled with hydraulic pressure, which is controlled by electric solenoid valves. If the ECU is not providing correct information to these solenoids, then you can have slippage issues.

[RTWolfie]

There are 2 things that will kill the Electric Shift clutch.

1- Lugging the engine. Upshifting and riding at too low an RPM
2- The wrong oil. (A product which is not JASO rated MA2)

Free of these 2 issues. The clutch should last the life of the engine.

Shifting is controlled with hydraulic pressure, which is controlled by electric solenoid valves. If the ECU is not providing correct information to these solenoids, then you can have slippage issues.

Thanks for your input BajaRon. Both times I was doing a consistent speed on flat terrain. What would the optimal RPM be for cruising on a highway?

[ArmyChief]

There are 2 things that will kill the Electric Shift clutch.

1- Lugging the engine. Upshifting and riding at too low an RPM
2- The wrong oil. (A product which is not JASO rated MA2)

Free of these 2 issues. The clutch should last the life of the engine.

Shifting is controlled with hydraulic pressure, which is controlled by electric solenoid valves. If the ECU is not providing correct information to these solenoids, then you can have slippage issues.

Good info sir !

BTW, BRP XPS does not have the JASO MA/MA2 rating on the bottle !

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

There are 2 things that will kill the Electric Shift clutch.

1- Lugging the engine. Upshifting and riding at too low an RPM
2- The wrong oil. (A product which is not JASO rated MA2)

Free of these 2 issues. The clutch should last the life of the engine.

Shifting is controlled with hydraulic pressure, which is controlled by electric solenoid valves. If the ECU is not providing correct information to these solenoids, then you can have slippage issues.

Ron the OP has an SE transmission ..... I also have one, please explain to me , how you / me /anyone can LUG an SE trans...... I gave this some thought ___ the only thing I can come up with is trying to TOW a heavy truck, however more likely you would spin the rear tire ...... JMHO ..... Mike ...............I went back and read a bunch of the OP posts .... it appears He has had some interesting issues .....

[BertRemington]

Mike -- as you know the SE6 clutch uses pressure to engage and spring discs (wave springs) to disengage. While the HCM has its own oil pump (two circuits) the line pressure can drop at low rpm under heavy load and high temperature and old oil leading to clutch slippage.

RT's situation is complicated. We have an experienced rider (19K km) with recent dealer service (assume 15K km) riding in probably mild weather maybe with a passenger. And after a presumed winter storage (Victoria can get snow) the slippage (flaring) appears.

RT -- I suggest two things. First, when riding at 100kph try staying in 5th gear for another 1000 km. 6th gear is kinda marginal RPM-wise but I think within the range of ECO mode. If the problem doesn't return then you have a solution. Second, try shifting a bit more often and at 4-5K RPM. It's a long shot but perhaps some sort glaze built up on your clutch plates during the winter and more shifts at higher RPM might help remove it. I'm not liking the other possibilities.

[RTWolfie]

Mike -- as you know the SE6 clutch uses pressure to engage and spring discs (wave springs) to disengage. While the HCM has its own oil pump (two circuits) the line pressure can drop at low rpm under heavy load and high temperature and old oil leading to clutch slippage.

RT's situation is complicated. We have an experienced rider (19K km) with recent dealer service (assume 15K km) riding in probably mild weather maybe with a passenger. And after a presumed winter storage (Victoria can get snow) the slippage (flaring) appears.

RT -- I suggest two things. First, when riding at 100kph try staying in 5th gear for another 1000 km. 6th gear is kinda marginal RPM-wise but I think within the range of ECO mode. If the problem doesn't return then you have a solution. Second, try shifting a bit more often and at 4-5K RPM. It's a long shot but perhaps some sort glaze built up on your clutch plates during the winter and more shifts at higher RPM might help remove it. I'm not liking the other possibilities.

Thanks for the input. I never carry a passenger, sadly the wife wants nothing to do with my Spyder. I never store my trike I ride all year long, if there's no snow and it's above freezing I don the cold weather gear and ride. The first time it happened I was at about 4500 RPM, the second about 3500 RPM if I remember correctly. It was my first longer ride (2 hours) since the fall. The good news is I'm still under warranty for the next 2 years, so if there's a problem it should be covered. I'll try and keep my RPMs higher and see if that helps. I didn't mention I'm running a stage 2 tune from Monster and have been keeping my RPMs higher as recommended, but admittedly probably wasn't adhering to that on the highway.