Fans running a lot??

[trikermutha]

Do you think that if the water pump had failed, there would be no overheating at highway speed, say?

I'm no expert...just trying to learn something from the experts.

LOL- I am no way a expert. There is possible that the pump and thermostat are still working but either the thermostat is sticking or the pump is failing?

For example this is more related to my car. But recently it threw a code , and it turns out the thermostat was not opening at a fast enough rate and threw a code. That's a first for me. And of course like the Spyder it was no easy task. Its was built into the thermostat housing so you have to replace both.

So with Lew' issues it really sounds like a sticky thermostat or pump related. Thats as long as all the ports and things are not clogged.

[UtahPete]

LOL- I am no way a expert. There is possible that the pump and thermostat are still working but either the thermostat is sticking or the pump is failing?

For example this is more related to my car. But recently it threw a code , and it turns out the thermostat was not opening at a fast enough rate and threw a code. That's a first for me. And of course like the Spyder it was no easy task. Its was built into the thermostat housing so you have to replace both.

So with Lew' issues it really sounds like a sticky thermostat or pump related. Thats as long as all the ports and things are not clogged.

Speaking of clogging, what happens to all the little bits of plastic that break off the gears or impeller if the pump fails?

[Peter Aawen]

I dunno guys, but I've just re-read this whole thread a couple of times and I'm wondering if it's not something waaay less dramatic & a whole lot simpler?? Back at around post #17 Lew, you wrote:

.

Seriously overheated ( by the temp gage) over in the Gold Country of Cal. Hi temps, fluctuating gauge , fans running alot. Added some water ( not much though). Long tow home ( thank goodness for AAA Premium)

No smoke or steam, no leaks visible, no loss of power.

Going into the shop

And nothing you've written since about the temps you've actually measured or the 'over-heating' you've experienced suggests that it's ACTUALLY over-heating - just that the gauge is going up. Is that truly the case??

Throughout all this, has your Spyder EVER pegged the gauge right up beyond the H mark? Has it EVER started coughing & spluttering, running rough & spewing boiling water or steam out of the overflow/resevoir tank &/or the exhaust? Has it EVER sucked the reservoir absolutely dry on cooling down?? Cos if it hasn't done most if not all those things, then from what you tell us, I'm beginning to suspect that it's not actually over-heating, it's just the gauge (&/or the way you're reading it?!?)

I certainly could be wrong, but please bear with me for a bit - I've seen this 'mis-reading' or 'mis-diagnosis' of over-heating a LOT on motorcycles, 4WD's, trucks, cars, & even heavy earth-moving equipment, simply because the 'temp gauges' we get to see & use these days don't actually truly reflect what's happening within the cooling system, so many people/operators who've never learnt otherwise begin to expect their gauges to climb from Cold to somewhere in the middle of their range and then stay there all the time.... only that's NOT truly reflecting the way your engine's coolant temp changes!

Most modern vehicles, including our Spyders, have 'dumbed down' temperature gauges - they are damped so that the gauge simply goes from 'Cold' to about half way up the range as the engine warms up & reaches operating temp; then instead of showing what REALLY happens within the rather wide range of acceptable operating temperatures (ie. the coolant temp going up & down as the load varies, the fans cut in & out, & the thermostat opens & closes etc, all within the 'safe temperature range... ) they are damped so that the needle/graph just sits there at about half way, thumb in bum, display in neutral, alllll the time, despite the continual changes that ARE occurring.... well, the needle sits there unless/until something in the system fails & then usually well AFTER the coolant temp has spiked waay into 'boiling coolant temps', the needle or bar graph finally gets moved right up into &/or beyond the Red & gives the operator a belated & waaay too late warning!

This is all done just to keep the 'uneducated motorist/engine operator masses' out there happy, so they don't worry about the needle/bar graph going up & down all the time (like it should! ) as the coolant temp fluctuates between something like about 70° C & 120° C (cos the coolant is pressurised & not just water, so it doesn't actually 'boil' until something like 120°C plus - bit more, bit less, whatever it is exactly really duznmatta... ) So on the 'damped gauges' we see mostly these days, that needle probably won't move too much at all for most of its operational life... unless something in the system fails. But even then, if it's the damping device itself that fails or stops limiting the electrical feed quite so well (as it may well, cos they tend to be an 'added on' thing...) then the needle/bar graph can start moving up & down more than most might expect (heck, some of us even search for & remove these damping devices when & if at all possible, cos we want to know what is actually going on with our coolant temps! ) and MANY drivers/riders/operators who don't know any better may then get worried about that needle moving as it should; altho if it hasn't actually left the safe operating range, which on my Spyder is the lower 7/8ths of whole range (it's marked orange) in which case the temp is still perfectly fine (even if it's right up the top of the orange! ) and the cooling system is doing exactly what it should, despite the gauge showing you something closer to what's REALLY going on with your coolant temps!

So unless your temp gauge has actually pegged out on/beyond the orange & well into the Red &/or past the H mark & you've experienced one or more of those other over-heating symptoms mentioned earlier, instead the needle has remained in that 'lower 7/8ths' of the dial, then there's a good chance your engine/cooling system has never actually over-heated! Got warm, sure; maybe even hot, then if it's cooled down again thru normal operation without displaying any of those other symptoms, especially the spewing coolant one, it's probably fine, cos that's what happens when you run an engine under varying loads in high ambient temps - the temp goes right up to whatever its increased boiling temp under pressure & due to its make-up might be, but unless it goes OVER that temp, then it's just hot, but NOT BOILING, & NOT OVER-HEATING!

And from what you've told us so far Lew, I'm really beginning to suspect that your Spyder & 'over-heating' experiences may well fit into this category - if your temp gauge has never pegged the H or gone well into the Red & you've never experienced any of those other symptoms, then your Spyder may not ever have actually truly 'over-heated'.... Come to that, has the Nanny ever shut the engine down during any of these 'over-heating' events?? Cos she's meant to shut the engine down if the engine temp gets too high for safe operation.... altho there are some instances/certain scenarios where she can't do this, but most of them are pretty terminal & instantly catastrophic!

Food for thought anyway?!? And even if it doesn't help you, I hope all this helps to save someone from chasing their tail over a gauge reading that is actually perfectly OK, even if it's right up the top of the orange instead of sitting still in the middle of the dial as we've been brain-washed to expect!

[UtahPete]

I dunno guys, but I've just re-read this whole thread a couple of times and I'm wondering if it's not something waaay less dramatic & a whole lot simpler?? Back at around post #17 Lew, you wrote:



And nothing you've written since about the temps you've actually measured or the 'over-heating' you've experienced suggests that it's ACTUALLY over-heating - just that the gauge is going up. Is that truly the case??

Throughout all this, has your Spyder EVER pegged the gauge right up beyond the H mark? Has it EVER started coughing & spluttering, running rough & spewing boiling water or steam out of the overflow/resevoir tank &/or the exhaust? Has it EVER sucked the reservoir absolutely dry on cooling down?? Cos if it hasn't done most if not all those things, then from what you tell us, I'm beginning to suspect that it's not actually over-heating, it's just the gauge (&/or the way you're reading it?!?)

So unless your temp gauge has actually pegged out on/beyond the orange & well into the Red &/or past the H mark & you've experienced one or more of those other over-heating symptoms mentioned earlier, instead the needle has remained in that 'lower 7/8ths' of the dial, then there's a good chance your engine/cooling system has never actually over-heated! Got warm, sure; maybe even hot, then if it's cooled down again thru normal operation without displaying any of those other symptoms, especially the spewing coolant one, it's probably fine....

Food for thought anyway?!? And even if it doesn't help you, I hope all this helps to save someone from chasing their tail over a gauge reading that is actually perfectly OK, even if it's right up the top of the orange instead of sitting still in the middle of the dial as we've been brain-washed to expect!

That's what I'm thinking.

[trikermutha]

If that is the case then take the wires off the Temperature analog gauge and see temp gauge comes up on the digital gauge. Then this way is has bypassed the analog gauge then see if it still does it.

[Peter Aawen]

If that is the case then take the wires off the Temperature analog gauge and see temp gauge comes up on the digital gauge. Then this way is has bypassed the analog gauge then see if it still does it.

Firstly, you need to disconnect BOTH the OE Analogue Temp & Gas gauges for the digital gauges to appear instead; and Secondly, because the 'damping' may be in the dash or otherwise 'hard coded' somewhere in the system &/or electronics, then the digital gauge may well do exactly the same thing!

What you really need to do to see if what I believe may be going on is actually happening, is to install an 'know working' & un-damped temp gauge along with a know & similar 'working properly' sender.... you should be able to leave the OE gauges (either the digital pair or the analogue pair of gauges ) still working (you might even HAVE to leave them still working in order to avoid creating CanBus &/or Computer issues ) and install the 'working properly' gauge & its sender in tandem - all you should need is a 'Tee piece' of the correct size.

But seriously, if the OE Temp gauge (either one) hasn't ever actually left the 'orange zone' on the dial that represents the 'normal operating temperature' range, then even if it sometimes gets right up to the top of that 'normal operating temperature' range, your engine isn't actually 'over-heating', it's just getting warmer than you can ever recollect it having been before! And if you are ryding in 'higher than normal ambient temps', especially at slow speeds &/or with low air flow levels, then isn't that sorta to be expected!

[PW2013STL]

Related to what Peter is stating.

Last year at the Red Rock rally I helped Joe and Ann out with a customer who was having an over heating issue (per his temp gage on his RT). They had planned to change the coolant, but were extremely busy. Joe asked me if I would do it, so I changed out his coolant in the gravel parking lot so as not to leave a mess on the blacktop. That had no effect on his Spyder showing very high temperatures. Joe discovered it was a defective temp gage in his dashboard

[trikermutha]

Well hoping Lew was checking temps with his gun etc. And checking the symptoms would help narrow it down. We are just all guessing at this time. Hope Lew will chime in what he finds.

[trikermutha]

The CTS is reporting back to the ECU then back thru the relays to the gauge if memory serves me correctly. So it should report the same reading whether analog or digital? Now if the gauge was bad (analog) you would think it would report a accurate reading on the digital scale.

[UtahPete]

Related to what Peter is stating.

Last year at the Red Rock rally I helped Joe and Ann out with a customer who was having an over heating issue (per his temp gage on his RT). They had planned to change the coolant, but were extremely busy. Joe asked me if I would do it, so I changed out his coolant in the gravel parking lot so as not to leave a mess on the blacktop. That had no effect on his Spyder showing very high temperatures. Joe discovered it was a defective temp gage in his dashboard

That's the most logical explanation, if indeed there is a problem at all.

[UtahPete]

If that is the case then take the wires off the Temperature analog gauge and see temp gauge comes up on the digital gauge. Then this way is has bypassed the analog gauge then see if it still does it.

I think Lew already tried that.

[trikermutha]

I think Lew already tried that.

I thought I read that back a few pages ago but could not find it. So if its doing the same thing on the digital gauge then how can it be the analog gauge if the gauge is bad?

[Peter Aawen]

I thought I read that back a few pages ago but could not find it. So if its doing the same thing on the digital gauge then how can it be the analog gauge if the gauge is bad?

Cos it's not just the analogue gauge - both gauges are actually run off the same info interpreted by the same bit of coding (& both likely 'corrected' or 'damped' by another similar but smaller bit of coding &/or possibly the same physical device) - the 'analogue' gauge really isn't 'analogue' gauge at all, it's just an analogue display of the converted digital signal after it's been processed by the computer - a fairly simple & these days commonly used bit of high-tech electrickery!

And it's not actually 'the gauge' per se (neither the digital nor the analogue gauge ) it's more just the way the info sent to the gauge is being presented & interpreted.... and that's not necessarily saying it's getting 'bad info' either, it's more likely that either the current really high ambient temps are making the coolant temp changes more noticeable than in the past; or that the info was (as most temp gauges are these days!) originally being damped to make the needle/bar graph always sit somewhere around the middle of its range and not truly reflect to every rise & fall in the coolant temp, but now (for whatever reason) that damping is no longer functioning as it did so the gauge is now showing those perfectly normal & to be expected rather large rises & falls in the coolant temps - so now the needle/bar graph is going up under high load/high temp/low air flow conditions and dropping again once the load drops/thermostat opens/air flow increases.... and because the coolant temps & the corresponding gauge display is now getting higher than they ever did before due to the ambient temps, but still maybe not ever actually getting out of the 'normal operating temperature range', it's creating the impression that the engine is over-heating.... only if it's not getting out of the 'normal' range, even if it's right up the top, it really ISN'T actually over-heating!

Lew, during all these recent 'over-heating' occurrences, has your temp indicator ever actually pegged right up to the H/thru the Red on the dial/bar graph; or has the engine ever started running rough & spluttering; or has it ever been shut down by the Nanny with a 'High Temp' or 'Over Temp' warning; or has your cooling system ever emptied the over-flow tank/coolant reservoir by blasting boiling water &/or steam out of it during your ride, or maybe even just sucked that reservoir completely empty once it's cooled down after one of these 'over-heating incidents'?? Cos if it hasn't done one or more of those (and you told us in that post of yours I quoted earlier that it hadn't... ) then it probably HASN'T actually over-heated as such, altho it may have got warmer than usual & so pushed the gauge reading up closer to the Red/Hot region without ever actually getting into it/going right up to the top of the gauge limit. So like I said earlier, I'm beginning to suspect that this isn't really an 'over-heating issue' per se - instead, it's more of a temp gauge info presentation &/or mis-interpretation of the info it's conveying issue!

Sorry if this all sounds clear as mud, but it is basically due to a misrepresentation of the true temperature info (which is something almost ALL vehicle manufacturers do with their temperature gauges these days! ) and as a result of you becoming used to that temp indicator (falsely) sitting pretty much in just the one spot all the time/over time, now that the ambient temps are high enough &/or the 'damping' device has failed (as they do!) it's now allowing the gauges to actually show the true range of the coolant temp variations, leading to the mis-interpretation of the info that the gauge is conveying (either gauge, or BOTH the digital & analogue gauges if you prefer... ) Simply really, especially if you've never had it do one or more of those things listed earlier!

[Lew L]

.

Yes I did the wire removal and switch to digital gauge. No change , same symptome. But Peter---- If this problem is normal, why has it not happened before on our many summer trips where high temps, stop and go traffic, even loaded 2 up was the norm??? Temp gauge has always been steady ( well dampened). Tupperware removed yesterday and after some gardening this cool morning, I'll be checking for BOTH fans running by pulling the wires on the CTS.
I think the bad gauge is ruled out as the digital gauge acts the same.

New water pump/thermostat will arrive next week. I'm still thinking " plastic gears"---- seems like the wrong material. If I'm cruising at 3,000 RPM the large gear on the cam is rotating at 1,500 RPM for hours on end. The plastic gear that drives the w/p is living a hard life. Even clocks use metal gears???? After all you guys help, I think we are down to the water pump/thermostat.

Thanks again Lew L

[Peter Aawen]

It certainly could still be one of those (worse) options Lew, but so far, the more you've told us about it, the more it sounds like it juuust might be the gauge info/mis-interpretation thing. Especially if you haven't had one or more of those other listed symptoms of over-heating, besides just a (possibly mis-interpreted??) temp reading? Have you had any of those?? Exactly how high DID the gauge (either gauge?!) get when you experienced these over-heating issues? DID it go right to the top of the scale?? Or was it just to the top of the 'normal operating temp' range??

As to why would this happen now - I really don't know, except that I've had this/seen this occur seemingly out of the blue fairly often now, across a number of different vehicle types in a wide range of different applications. Quite a few people have been trundling along happily for years with a temp gauge on their particular vehicle that has never done anything but rise to about mid way as the engine warms up then just sit there, all damped and never showing what's actually going on as the coolant temp goes up & down with the changes in load/thermostat opening & closing/air flow changes etc, and it's worked fine like that for years.... Then suddenly one day, the gauge starts going up & down, even getting up quite high, almost into the Red!! (but not quite!) And because it's never done that before, they THINK they've got an over-heating problem; thinking that maybe the viscous coupled fan has failed, or the radiator's clogged up internally or externally, or they've cracked a head, etc, etc, etc.... only upon investigation (& sometimes after much angst & expenditure trying to resolve each of those possibilities in turn, all to no avail!) none of those other listed signs & symptoms have ever occurred and they've eventually discovered/been convinced that there's actually NOTHING WRONG, it's just that for whatever reason, now their temp gauge is truly showing what the coolant temp is doing as the load/thermostat/air flow etc changes and they've been needlessly worried over a temp reading that wasn't really telling them their engine was over-heating anyway! Sure, there've been a few others where they really were having over-heating issues, but no-where near as many as those who weren't, and none of those who truly had over-heating issues saw just the temp gauge pegging off the top of the scale, they ALL had one or more of the other signs & symptoms of over-heating present!

As for the 'bad gauge being ruled out' thing, I feel that you missed the point - you don't actually have TWO gauges, you've only got TWO displays for the one set of temperature info, and that info is ALL digital, it's just that one of those 'so called' gauges that you can see is actually an analogue representation of the same digital info that the digital gauge shows.... there's no analogue device behind the dial either, it's a fairly dumb (digital) electrical device that is simply displaying digital info in a slightly dfifferent way! So you haven't really ruled anything out by seeing the same info on both displays - that's sorta like expecting that seeing that the digital speed display numbers on the dash show the same speed as that shown by the needle on the 'analogue' speedo means that it's accurately reporting your speed... or assuming they've gotta be different for either to be inaccurate!! It's the same info delivered to the same computer for the same processing and then it's just presented in two slightly different ways & places - it's the same stuff coming from the same sensors processed by the same processors and presented to the same display drivers, only you get to see that same stuff in two different places, so of course it's the same.... even if we KNOW that as far as the speedo info while running OE spec wheels & tires is concerned, it's probably anything up to 10% fast & therefore INACCURATE, as almost all OE speedo's are!

So like I said, it certainly could still be any one of those other things, and if you're happy that you've excluded everything except the waterpump/thermostat and are happy to go ahead and replace that, then that's fine by me..... I'm just suggesting that since (as far as I can see to date??) you've told us that you've seen/experienced NONE of the other signs & symptoms of over-heating, then maybe you are over-looking the easy/possibly most obvious answer & instead chasing/looking for the worst possible cause & are maybe spending money & time in needlessly chasing a problem that juuust might not actually BE a problem at all! Have you seen any of those other signs & symptoms of over-heating??

[UtahPete]

So like I said, it certainly could still be any one of those other things, and if you're happy that you've excluded everything except the waterpump/thermostat and are happy to go ahead and replace that, then that's fine by me..... I'm just suggesting that since (as far as I can see to date??) you've told us that you've seen/experienced NONE of the other signs & symptoms of over-heating, then maybe you are over-looking the easy/possibly most obvious answer & instead chasing/looking for the worst possible cause & are maybe spending money & time in needlessly chasing a problem that juuust might not actually BE a problem at all! Have you seen any of those other signs & symptoms of over-heating??

That's what has me flummoxed, too. What symptoms of overheating have you actually experienced, other than the gauge reading, Lew?

And, actually, what is the reading on the gauge that has you so concerned??

[Lew L]

That's what has me flummoxed, too. What symptoms of overheating have you actually experienced, other than the gauge reading, Lew?

And, actually, what is the reading on the gauge that has you so concerned??

Peter and Pete,

There were no other signs of o/h ing. Just an almost pegged gauge ( both of them). I'm still up for the plastic gears

for the waterpump/thermostat.

Tested for both fans working ( they DID) this morning by pulling the CTS plug. Of course, checked for codes and got a P118 ( overheating ) and a p000 when plugged back in. checked after a minute or so off and got no codes.

[Peter Aawen]

Peter and Pete,

There were no other signs of o/h ing. Just an almost pegged gauge ( both of them). I'm still up for the plastic gears

for the waterpump/thermostat.

Tested for both fans working ( they DID) this morning by pulling the CTS plug. Of course, checked for codes and got a P118 ( overheating ) and a p000 when plugged back in. checked after a minute or so off and got no codes.

Was this code when you had the CTS unplugged?!? And you haven't got this code any other time??

It'll be interesting to hear if you do have any waterpump/thermostat &/or plastic gear issues...

[Papa103]

Lew, You have a laser temp gauge. Use that to check the temp at the thermostat housing. Most 4 stroke engines run around 200 degrees. If your gauge on the Spyder is maxed out the laser temp probe will either confirm its actual over heated or not. I would also run the laser probe all around both radiators to make sure there are no cold spots, indicating a partially plugged radiator. If the laser temp probe is cold on the outlet side of the thermostat (when the spyder gauge is pegged hot) you will need to get a reading from the engine side of the thermostat. If the coolant in the engine is overheated it will tell you the thermostat is not opening. Hope this helps.

[trikermutha]

Peter and Pete,

There were no other signs of o/h ing. Just an almost pegged gauge ( both of them). I'm still up for the plastic gears

for the waterpump/thermostat.

Tested for both fans working ( they DID) this morning by pulling the CTS plug. Of course, checked for codes and got a P118 ( overheating ) and a p000 when plugged back in. checked after a minute or so off and got no codes.

Yep sounds right P0118 Disconnected sensor, circuit wire short to battery + or sensor resistance too High.

[bluewoo]

https://youtu.be/-UXdbaZyxPY
Go to about 1:02

[Lew L]

.

I've got the water pump well exposed ( moved the ECU with 3 screws)Did it before I looked as Smokes video. After the tupperware is off , it easy............ Now the wait for the new part, drain coolant,inspect, reinstall.

[trikermutha]

Good Luck Lew!

[Lew L]

Good Luck Lew!

Thanks--- I appreciate all you help.

[UtahPete]

.

I've got the water pump well exposed ( moved the ECU with 3 screws)Did it before I looked as Smokes video. After the tupperware is off , it easy............ Now the wait for the new part, drain coolant,inspect, reinstall.

Post pics of your progress please.