Gear up for the slide, not the ride

[Rogue Hawk]

We know it better than most people.

[ES44AC]

As bad as most sidewalks are there will be a lot more stories. 80% of the skateboarders and most of the scooter riders are reckless in my opinion. Its like they want to get hurt or killed, Darwin was right.

[Pirate looks at --]

Definitely not ATGATT!

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

What kind of vehicle malfunction outside of rider is there? i have 1 of those and when i have fallen it is me, i always looked at the road or sidewalk i am on.

[Motorcycledave]

When you ride them you do so at your own risk, He is an adult
and should know to use safety equip.
I doubt his lawsuit will go anywhere.

[kep-up]

When you ride them you do so at your own risk, He is an adult
and should know to use safety equip.
I doubt his lawsuit will go anywhere.

Sadly, his suit will probably get him a bunch of money. Even though he is an adult, it is obvious that he has no fault in anything. Period. One can hear this in his voice and see it in his body language. As usual, the scooter rental company will follow their insurance company's advice and setle out of court for "an unspecified amount".

[johnsimion]

I am totally for ATGATT and I practice what I preach, but I think you people are way too hard on this guy. Is it really reasonable to expect scooter riders to wear safety gear like they're racing on the Isle of Man? What safety gear would you have them wear, anyway? And what safety gear have prevented the injuries he sustained? This guy was suddenly thrown off, not hit by a car where normal safety gear might have helped. This guy landed on his face, chin, and wrists. A bike helmet, half-helmet or 3/4 helmet would have done nothing to protect his face or chin. A full-face helmet would have protected his face and chin and might have even made things worse by by forcing his head upwards when he landed and possibly breaking his neck. His other injuries were broken wrists. I don't know any gear that would have prevented broken wrists.

Moreover, this wasn't reckless behavior, at least not that anyone can prove right now. Obviously if he was hit by a car because he was weaving in and out, that would be reckless. If his wheel locked up because he hit a rock or piece of gravel, that would be his own fault, too. However, at 1:11 he states that he blames the accident on a mechanical failure of the scooter. The reporter failed to ask him about it, but if the bearings suddenly seized up, that would also lock up the wheels and definitely throw off a rider in the manner he describes. He will need an engineer to examine the scooter and see if he can prove that that was what happened. If he can prove that, he can and should win a "products liability" case. Defects in products that cause injury have been the law in this country since the 1960s at least.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

I am totally for ATGATT and I practice what I preach, but I think you people are way too hard on this guy. Is it really reasonable to expect scooter riders to wear safety gear like they're racing on the Isle of Man? What safety gear would you have them wear, anyway? And what safety gear have prevented the injuries he sustained? This guy was suddenly thrown off, not hit by a car where normal safety gear might have helped. This guy landed on his face, chin, and wrists. A bike helmet, half-helmet or 3/4 helmet would have done nothing to protect his face or chin. A full-face helmet would have protected his face and chin and might have even made things worse by by forcing his head upwards when he landed and possibly breaking his neck. His other injuries were broken wrists. I don't know any gear that would have prevented broken wrists.

Moreover, this wasn't reckless behavior, at least not that anyone can prove right now. Obviously if he was hit by a car because he was weaving in and out, that would be reckless. If his wheel locked up because he hit a rock or piece of gravel, that would be his own fault, too. However, at 1:11 he states that he blames the accident on a mechanical failure of the scooter. The reporter failed to ask him about it, but if the bearings suddenly seized up, that would also lock up the wheels and definitely throw off a rider in the manner he describes. He will need an engineer to examine the scooter and see if he can prove that that was what happened. If he can prove that, he can and should win a "products liability" case. Defects in products that cause injury have been the law in this country since the 1960s at least.

you miss the point, he didn't even try. he had no safety gear at all, could have worn gloves & bicycle helmet and why did he fall? he in no way said he was partly to blame

[Bob Denman]

This Chucklehead is just setting the table for a lawsuit: nothing more!

[Rogue Hawk]

I am totally for ATGATT and I practice what I preach, but I think you people are way too hard on this guy. Is it really reasonable to expect scooter riders to wear safety gear like they're racing on the Isle of Man? .

No, but a person should assess the most likely risks and wear reasonable safety gear based on that risk. I would ask myself, "How can I prepare for a 15 mph spill on this thing?".

[johnsimion]

No, but a person should assess the most likely risks and wear reasonable safety gear based on that risk. I would ask myself, "How can I prepare for a 15 mph spill on this thing?".

Of course we agree that safety gear should be selected based on risk. However, your question is not the only question to ask. You don't select safety gear based only on the INJURIES that you risk; i.e., in a 15 mph spill. You also consider the risk that you will HAVE an accident involving injuries and also the CONVENIENCE or lack thereof in wearing such gear. If scooter riders aren't wearing the gear, it's probably because if they ride carefully there is little risk of an accident, if there is an accident, most of the time the low speeds will not result in involve serious injury, and because putting on a helmet and full pads both takes a lot of time, makes the rider hot, requires storage and would therefore be inconvenient. Scooter riders who stay on sidewalks and ride carefully probably don't need safety gear, whereas those who ride in the street and weave in and out of traffic and do dangerous stunts certainly do. I'm simply arguing against lumping all scooter riders together. As for this guy, who knows? We don't have any information as to how he was riding or what exactly caused his spill. It doesn't even matter -- there is no safety gear that would have prevented the injuries he suffered. That makes the whole discussion moot.

[Rogue Hawk]

Of course we agree that safety gear should be selected based on risk. However, your question is not the only question to ask. You don't select safety gear based only on the INJURIES that you risk; i.e., in a 15 mph spill. You also consider the risk that you will HAVE an accident involving injuries and also the CONVENIENCE or lack thereof in wearing such gear. If scooter riders aren't wearing the gear, it's probably because if they ride carefully there is little risk of an accident, if there is an accident, most of the time the low speeds will not result in involve serious injury, and because putting on a helmet and full pads both takes a lot of time, makes the rider hot, requires storage and would therefore be inconvenient. Scooter riders who stay on sidewalks and ride carefully probably don't need safety gear, whereas those who ride in the street and weave in and out of traffic and do dangerous stunts certainly do. I'm simply arguing against lumping all scooter riders together. As for this guy, who knows? We don't have any information as to how he was riding or what exactly caused his spill. It doesn't even matter -- there is no safety gear that would have prevented the injuries he suffered. That makes the whole discussion moot.

I am not disagreeing with you, I do know that there are other factors. For example, I also consider where I am going. If I know I will be going somewhere and will be walking around, I wear my touring boots rather than my Dianese race boots. It's all a balancing act. But I still take reasonable precautions for the most likely scenarios out of my control. In this case, a 15 mph spill because I hit a bad spot on the pavement is a likely scenario. This guy did nothing and at least shares some blame for his fate.

[kep-up]

Going back to my previous post, the gentleman taks absolutely NO responsibility for his spill. And it is highly unlikely that there actually was a mechanical failure. Bob is right, it's all about the money!

[Bob Denman]

This moron forgot all about the physics classes that he used to sleep through in High School.
Take a melon, and drop it from a height of about 66" onto pavement...
Now: imagine that's YOUR melon! some

[ByeSpyder]

-- there is no safety gear that would have prevented the injuries he suffered. That makes the whole discussion moot.

No, actually it does not.

A helmet might have kept his face/chin from touching the ground. When I was racing I was taught to turn my head sideways in a frontal get-off so that the helmet side takes the first bounce. It might not protect you from all injury but it is better than nothing. He didn't say how he managed to injure his ear but a 3/4 or full-face helmet would have definitely helped there.

Skateboarders use wrist/glove protection that will greatly reduce broken wrists due to outstretched arms (when falling). They are also invaluable when sliding along concrete, gravel or asphalt pavement.

Knee pads would protect his knees from road rash and perhaps a broken kneecap. Likewise for elbow guards.

And it goes without saying that leather shoes or boots give much more protection than flip-flops or tennis shoes. But since most get-offs will be a full frontal high side anything that just slips onto your feet are almost guaranteed to come off before you hit the ground.

Then there is the same risk that all scooter and biker riders face.....the idiot in the cage that "doesn't see you" and turns into your path or comes shooting out of a driveway or alley. There are several kinds of places to ride and alongside a busy street or sidewalk isn't one of them.

[johnsimion]

No, actually it does not.

A helmet might have kept his face/chin from touching the ground. When I was racing I was taught to turn my head sideways in a frontal get-off so that the helmet side takes the first bounce. It might not protect you from all injury but it is better than nothing. He didn't say how he managed to injure his ear but a 3/4 or full-face helmet would have definitely helped there.

Skateboarders use wrist/glove protection that will greatly reduce broken wrists due to outstretched arms (when falling). They are also invaluable when sliding along concrete, gravel or asphalt pavement.

Knee pads would protect his knees from road rash and perhaps a broken kneecap. Likewise for elbow guards.

And it goes without saying that leather shoes or boots give much more protection than flip-flops or tennis shoes. But since most get-offs will be a full frontal high side anything that just slips onto your feet are almost guaranteed to come off before you hit the ground.

Then there is the same risk that all scooter and biker riders face.....the idiot in the cage that "doesn't see you" and turns into your path or comes shooting out of a driveway or alley. There are several kinds of places to ride and alongside a busy street or sidewalk isn't one of them.

First of all, there is no risk that the idiot in the cage doesn't see you if you don't go on the street. If the idiot in the cage is driving on the sidewalk, God help us all, safety gear or no safety gear.

As for the helmet, this guy landed on his chin. The only helmet that would prevent that injury would be a full-face helmet, but landing smack-dab on the chin with a full-face helmet might well have snapped his neck and killed him. A 3/4 helmet would have worked, if he had enough time to turn his head to the side, but if he had enough time to turn his head to the side he wouldn't have an injury to his chin anyway. And I don't think most of us have enough racing experience to put the head-turn maneuver into muscle memory.

Skateboarders wear wrist protection like you describe because they are doing jumps and acrobatics. The risk of injury is much greater and skateboarders are not holding a handlebar like scooter riders. Why don't Spyder riders, motorcyclists, and bicyclists wear the same wrist protection as skateboarders? After all, we're riding 70 mph and could land on our wrists. Why not? It's not reasonable.

Sure, all the things you describe would be BETTER. I can see wearing a simple bike helmet, although that wouldn't have done any good in this accident. More than that is simply not reasonable for the risks involved, at least not most of the time. The scooter goes 15 mph. That's not even twice the average human's jogging speed of 8 mph. How slow do you have to go to avoid ATGATT? Should joggers also wear helmets, full pads, wrist protection and leather shoes/boots?

Like I said at the beginning, I am for ATGATT and I practice what I preach. I do believe, however, in the personal freedom of others to make their own decisions about how much safety they need, especially when it strikes me as reasonable for the risks and when I see hundreds of thousands of others making the same rational decision every day. Would it be better to have the government legislate full helmets, wrist protection, kneepads and leather boots for all scooter riders?

[ByeSpyder]

First of all, there is no risk that the idiot in the cage doesn't see you if you don't go on the street. If the idiot in the cage is driving on the sidewalk, God help us all, safety gear or no safety gear.

Cages drive on the sidewalks all the time - mostly coming out of parking lots or private driveways.

And don't depend upon god to help you as he/she/it does not exist.

As for the helmet, this guy landed on his chin. The only helmet that would prevent that injury would be a full-face helmet, but landing smack-dab on the chin with a full-face helmet might well have snapped his neck and killed him. A 3/4 helmet would have worked, if he had enough time to turn his head to the side, but if he had enough time to turn his head to the side he wouldn't have an injury to his chin anyway. And I don't think most of us have enough racing experience to put the head-turn maneuver into muscle memory.

The interview did not say he landed on his chin and judging by the very small wound it wasn't a huge hit. Doing a face plant with a full face helmet would likely impact both the chin and forehead at once. Very unlikely he would break his neck.

Skateboarders wear wrist protection like you describe because they are doing jumps and acrobatics. The risk of injury is much greater and skateboarders are not holding a handlebar like scooter riders. Why don't Spyder riders, motorcyclists, and bicyclists wear the same wrist protection as skateboarders? After all, we're riding 70 mph and could land on our wrists. Why not? It's not reasonable.

Our scooter rider was not holding a handlebar as he went flying forward either and landing with gloves and write protectors is a hell of a lot more protection than the skin on your palms. It's YOUR hands and wrists so wear what you like - or nothing - but don't bitch about broken bones or road rash after taking a header.

Sure, all the things you describe would be BETTER. I can see wearing a simple bike helmet, although that wouldn't have done any good in this accident. More than that is simply not reasonable for the risks involved, at least not most of the time. The scooter goes 15 mph. That's not even twice the average human's jogging speed of 8 mph. How slow do you have to go to avoid ATGATT? Should joggers also wear helmets, full pads, wrist protection and leather shoes/boots?

Take a spill while running without any protection then see if the road rash and possible broken bones are worth no protection. Riding a skateboard, a scooter or just running quickly all have the same outcome - a forward fall broken only by your face, hands (and by extension your shoulder blades, another long and painful recovery), knees and feet. Your choice.

Like I said at the beginning, I am for ATGATT and I practice what I preach. I do believe, however, in the personal freedom of others to make their own decisions about how much safety they need, especially when it strikes me as reasonable for the risks and when I see hundreds of thousands of others making the same rational decision every day. Would it be better to have the government legislate full helmets, wrist protection, kneepads and leather boots for all scooter riders?

I am not advocating mandatory safety equipment and especially by government mandate. It is your choice. I think this guy learned a valuable lesson and others could learn from his accident as well.

[Bob Denman]

You guys are both saying the exact same thing:

"Don't waste my time telling me how wrong I am: my mind is already made up!"
"But let me point out the flaws in YOUR argument again..."

[Rogue Hawk]

I pretty much see safety gear as something that reduces injury because every crash scenario is different. It's impossible to account for all the things that can happen. Someone could be suited up like a MotoGP rider, and there are still situations where it wont matter. This is why riding is a brotherhood, we all accept the same risk to do what we love.

As far as this clown is concerned, I see it as he is mostly at fault. If I ran a scooter rental company, I would have warring signs up, have customers sign an agreement that they understand the risks, and offer safety gear rental. This would reduced liability. But if this happened in California, all bets are off what would happen in court.