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  1. #26
    Very Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    Has anyone gone to a car alignment shop ,to see what they can do ? I have set the toe in on a lot of vehicles using the string method ,but the spyder is missing a wheel .
    Last edited by stmike 1800; 08-04-2018 at 06:06 AM.
    2018 RTL , dark blue

  2. #27
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    Just a quick note about BRP recommending the Rolo alignment system, and therefore owners not trusting any other alignment system: given their track record for ignoring owners’ concerns about wheel alignment, would you trust BRP’s recommendation? The Rolo system uses a hub insert to get a true parallel plane to the brake rotors and that’s fine. Wheel stand-offs, however, have been used for wheel alignment for more than a century – they were accurate in the days of string-lines, they are still accurate in the days of lasers. What the OP discovered was zero toe-in, which is VERY COMMON, or at least is common, straight out of the crate, here in Australia. With the toe-out bias generated by suspension movement while the bike is in motion, this actually means a small amount of toe-out in motion ( dependent on rider and passenger weight ), which is the worst-case-scenario, leading to twitchy steering and wandering, especially on uneven surfaces ( like most roads ).


    Not getting the handlebar exactly straight before performing the alignment is exactly the same as not getting a steering wheel exactly centered on a car – it causes slight crabbing, but the alignment is still accurate. Aiming at 1/8” toe-in for an RT is, for fussy peeps like me, good for heavy loads, but probably a bit too much for solo riding. I am used to thinking in metrics, but 1/8” is about 3mm, and I would normally align an RT to 2mm for an average-weight rider, perhaps 2.5mm for rider and passenger. About 0.5mm less than that for the lighter models, RS, ST, F3.

    Lindsay.
    Somewhere on this site there should be photos of the original BRP method of alignment. It was lengthy and involved. Essentially, in simple terms, you removed the front shocks and installed fixed length bars. Then utilized measurements taken from the chassis it self.

    Endorsing ROLO, gave another less complicated method to align the front wheels.

    Your tooling and method provides another simple means to set the front wheel toe.

    In regards to the handlebars being in the correct position, agree this has no mechanical effect on the alignment of the wheels. As for crabbing, the misaligned bars will not cause this, the few things that can cause true crabbing or the vehicle to travel sideways are an improperly positioned rear wheel and the various causes of the that.

    A four wheeled vehicle, such as a car, must have the two axles parrallel to each other, or the centerline of the two front stub axles parrallel to the rear axle. Any misalignment of the axles will cause the vehicle to crab or travel sideways.

    On a Spyder, you could have excessive toe in, or toe out, and have no crabbing, provided the rear wheel is correctly positioned. The Spyders front axles will always split the difference to travel straight ahead and align themselves parrallel to the rear axle.

  3. #28
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmike 1800 View Post
    Has anyone gone to a car alignment shop ,to see what they can do ? I have set the toe in on a lot of vehicles using the string method ,but the spyder is missing a wheel .

    There have been posts about this being done and working well. The Spyder front end has only toe adjustments so it is far simpler than any car. Finding a shop willing to do the work without any data to set it to may be more difficult than it’s worth.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    Just a quick note about BRP recommending the Rolo alignment system, and therefore owners not trusting any other alignment system: given their track record for ignoring owners’ concerns about wheel alignment, would you trust BRP’s recommendation? The Rolo system uses a hub insert to get a true parallel plane to the brake rotors and that’s fine. Wheel stand-offs, however, have been used for wheel alignment for more than a century – they were accurate in the days of string-lines, they are still accurate in the days of lasers. What the OP discovered was zero toe-in, which is VERY COMMON, or at least is common, straight out of the crate, here in Australia. With the toe-out bias generated by suspension movement while the bike is in motion, this actually means a small amount of toe-out in motion ( dependent on rider and passenger weight ), which is the worst-case-scenario, leading to twitchy steering and wandering, especially on uneven surfaces ( like most roads ).


    Not getting the handlebar exactly straight before performing the alignment is exactly the same as not getting a steering wheel exactly centered on a car – it causes slight crabbing, but the alignment is still accurate. Aiming at 1/8” toe-in for an RT is, for fussy peeps like me, good for heavy loads, but probably a bit too much for solo riding. I am used to thinking in metrics, but 1/8” is about 3mm, and I would normally align an RT to 2mm for an average-weight rider, perhaps 2.5mm for rider and passenger. About 0.5mm less than that for the lighter models, RS, ST, F3.

    Lindsay.
    Thanks Lindsay for your input. The Jig was made from your recommendations. I'm an average rider at about 200 lbs. My toe in on the left side seems to be .75 inches. By your calculation I need to get that down to .420 or 7/16 of an inch at the target to the rear. That should translate to .2mm at the wheel if my math is correct. I would also have to bring the right side toe out to the same measurement. I went out this morning on a newly paved road and found using the cruise I could take hands off steering and I drifted to the Right. Even while riding the crown of the road it drifted right.
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  5. #30
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvanbeek View Post
    Thanks Lindsay for your input. The Jig was made from your recommendations. I'm an average rider at about 200 lbs. My toe in on the left side seems to be .75 inches. By your calculation I need to get that down to .420 or 7/16 of an inch at the target to the rear. That should translate to .2mm at the wheel if my math is correct. I would also have to bring the right side toe out to the same measurement. I went out this morning on a newly paved road and found using the cruise I could take hands off steering and I drifted to the Right. Even while riding the crown of the road it drifted right.

    After you set the toe, did you recenter the dynamic power steering unit and its torque sensor? If not the power steering unit can pull you to one side or the other even with the alignment correct.

    They have to work together.

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  6. #31
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    JC I haven't done anything yet. Trying to get my duck in a row before I jump in.
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  7. #32
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    After you set the toe, did you recenter the dynamic power steering unit and its torque sensor? If not the power steering unit can pull you to one side or the other even with the alignment correct.

    They have to work together.
    Exactly, this is a point I tried to convey earlier.

    Also, these Spyders are so basic in steering geometry that because of bump steer they have a wide range of acceptable settings that handle well and do not consume tires.

    I aligned ours back in 2014 first by feel then using toe sticks. I have checked and aligned others that were laser aligned, but eating tires, realigned with the toe sticks and tne rider seated on the machine. No more tire wear, rolls better and incresed fuel MPG.

    There is no adjustment for caster or camber, simply toe setting. Just like an old school go kart.

  8. #33
    Member lindsayw148's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvanbeek View Post
    My toe in on the left side seems to be .75 inches. By your calculation I need to get that down to .420 or 7/16 of an inch at the target to the rear. That should translate to .2mm at the wheel if my math is correct. I would also have to bring the right side toe out to the same measurement.
    Ummm... some mathematical conflicts for me, there. Metrics is much easier. When I align an RT, I set the toe-in to about 8 or 10mm at the targets for an average-weight rider – that's about 5/16" to about, yes, about 7/16" if you can figure that out! The targets, of course, are at 5 times the diameter of the front wheels away, so those measurements are 5 times what the across-the-wheel settings are. If you are a millimeter or so out at the targets, that's diddly-squat at the wheels! ( diddly-squat is an official measurement, usually described as 'Pfffft!... ah, that's close enough.' )

    To answer another post, most car alignment firms have swiveling jigs on a car hoist, so they can align both front and back wheels, but a Spyder won't fit on a hoist because of the single rear wheel – that's why most firms refuse to align Spyders. Too hard basket. It really has to be done on the floor.

    Agree about the crabbing, rear wheel needs to be crooked, incorrectly-set handlebars merely make uneven bar position. DPS zero needs to be out by a substantial amount to cause veering, but I have seen that a few times.
    Last edited by lindsayw148; 08-04-2018 at 11:01 PM.
    Lindsay, originally on a 'poor-man's-ST'... an '08 RS with all the after-market bells and whistles, but now on a '16 F3, furiously adding bells and whistles.
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  9. #34
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    Ummm... some mathematical conflicts for me, there. Metrics is much easier. When I align an RT, I set the toe-in to about 8 or 10mm at the targets for an average-weight rider – that's about 5/16" to about, yes, about 7/16" if you can figure that out! The targets, of course, are at 5 times the diameter of the front wheels away, so those measurements are 5 times what the across-the-wheel settings are. If you are a millimeter or so out at the targets, that's diddly-squat at the wheels! ( diddly-squat is an official measurement, usually described as 'Pfffft!... ah, that's close enough.' )

    To answer another post, most car alignment firms have swiveling jigs on a car hoist, so they can align both front and back wheels, but a Spyder won't fit on a hoist because of the single rear wheel – that's why most firms refuse to align Spyders. Too hard basket. It really has to be done on the floor.

    Agree about the crabbing, rear wheel needs to be crooked, incorrectly-set handlebars merely make uneven bar position. DPS zero needs to be out by a substantial amount to cause veering, but I have seen that a few times.
    Actually a pretty small error on the DPS Torque sensor will result in veering to the other side. The DPS thinks its getting steering input from the rider in that direction. You are right on the zero position of the angle sensor.

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  10. #35
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    This is a wonderful thread. Thanks to everyone for the education. I bought my 2011 RT with just 1500 miles from the second owner. It already had the Baja Ron on it. The owner said he was selling for "health" reasons! Ha! Obviously it had problems. Anyhow, with tires and alignment it's just fine now. And I understand why.
    Ride safe!

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  11. #36
    Member lindsayw148's Avatar
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    There is always one ‘downhill’ wheel – for you in N.America it’s the right wheel, for me in Australia it’s the left. That wheel carries a bit more of the steering load than the ‘uphill’ wheel because of Mr Newton’s apple. It’s not a constant thing, it jiggles from wheel to wheel because of bumps and uneven surfaces and, whenever one wheel grabs the road more than its neighbor, the bike tries to dart in whatever direction it is pointing, because the Spyder is such a light vehicle. With slight toe-out in motion there is a difference between which way each wheel is pointing, so this is why the steering is so twitchy over rough surfaces or vague over smoother ones, and also why the relatively unloaded uphill wheel is the one that tends to scrub the most. With much larger inaccuracy, either toe-out or toe-in, the amount of ‘scrub’ is more constant, so steering is ironically easier to manage, although at higher cost in rubber.
    Lindsay, originally on a 'poor-man's-ST'... an '08 RS with all the after-market bells and whistles, but now on a '16 F3, furiously adding bells and whistles.
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  12. #37
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    There is always one ‘downhill’ wheel – for you in N.America it’s the right wheel, for me in Australia it’s the left. That wheel carries a bit more of the steering load than the ‘uphill’ wheel because of Mr Newton’s apple. It’s not a constant thing, it jiggles from wheel to wheel because of bumps and uneven surfaces and, whenever one wheel grabs the road more than its neighbor, the bike tries to dart in whatever direction it is pointing, because the Spyder is such a light vehicle. With slight toe-out in motion there is a difference between which way each wheel is pointing, so this is why the steering is so twitchy over rough surfaces or vague over smoother ones, and also why the relatively unloaded uphill wheel is the one that tends to scrub the most. With much larger inaccuracy, either toe-out or toe-in, the amount of ‘scrub’ is more constant, so steering is ironically easier to manage, although at higher cost in rubber.
    Add in, chassis lean in corners along with a zero toe, insufficient toe in, or even toed out setting, as the bike leans, the toe out increases on tne outside tire, the inside tire may go from toed out, to zero to toed in in an instant and see the bike dart to the inside of the corner.

    Ours has never been laser aligned. Initially, the bike was crap. Experience from racing karts let me know there was toe out causing instability in the corners. Straight was ok. I made a minor toe change at first with a simple known amount of tie rod rotation. This alone improved handling everywhere.

    Using toe sticks, I measured and noted the settings. Again based on simply feel, I added more toe in. Once it felt neutral, I remeasured and found that with a rider seated onboard, and the chassis settled, there was a small amount of toe in.

    My opinion regarding the setup, is that if the Spyder will carry a steady line without chasing the steering through sweeping corners that is a good setting. If the Spyder steering requires attention to either correct a darting to the inside of the corner, or has silly manners entering the corner, tne toe setting is off.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    There is always one ‘downhill’ wheel – for you in N.America it’s the right wheel, for me in Australia it’s the left. That wheel carries a bit more of the steering load than the ‘uphill’ wheel because of Mr Newton’s apple. It’s not a constant thing, it jiggles from wheel to wheel because of bumps and uneven surfaces and, whenever one wheel grabs the road more than its neighbor, the bike tries to dart in whatever direction it is pointing, because the Spyder is such a light vehicle. With slight toe-out in motion there is a difference between which way each wheel is pointing, so this is why the steering is so twitchy over rough surfaces or vague over smoother ones, and also why the relatively unloaded uphill wheel is the one that tends to scrub the most. With much larger inaccuracy, either toe-out or toe-in, the amount of ‘scrub’ is more constant, so steering is ironically easier to manage, although at higher cost in rubber.
    Agree that road crowns or gullies worn into the roads from use over time can give a Spyder some handling fits. Overall though, the crowned road is not normally an issue. It may require a slight input to hold the line but typically not bad. As for the worn roads. Most often, at least for us, I am able to find that sweet spot where either the rear tire is on the high portion and the fronts ride in the gullies, or the rear is in the gully and fronts on the higher spots. No real preference other try to find what is best while riding.

  14. #39
    Very Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    Lots of good info here, thanks . My bike is a real hand full on some of are bad roads .It dips and dives like it had a mind of its own . Yesterday i jacked up the bike scribed a line in the center of the front tires . Measured and found 1/16 toe in ,i adjusted it to 1/8 toe in .And will try it today ,if no rain .
    What is the difference from stock to bajaron's sway bar ,i measured mine 16 mm ?
    2018 RTL , dark blue

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    Quote Originally Posted by stmike 1800 View Post
    Lots of good info here, thanks . My bike is a real hand full on some of are bad roads .It dips and dives like it had a mind of its own . Yesterday i jacked up the bike scribed a line in the center of the front tires . Measured and found 1/16 toe in ,i adjusted it to 1/8 toe in .And will try it today ,if no rain .
    What is the difference from stock to bajaron's sway bar ,i measured mine 16 mm ?
    1/16” to 1/8” if accurately measured will be a good improvement. However, to be accurate, the measurement must be taken at the tires 3 and 9 oclock positions and I suspect the fenders and bodywork prevent this.

    Also, is that 1/16” or 1/8” with or without a rider on board? Those settings with no rider onboard still retain a toe out setting once the rider is seated and of average, say 200 pound weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    There is always one ‘downhill’ wheel – for you in N.America

    I have an excellent write-up on laser alignment, I think from you, but it has WAY too much detail for me to follow.....and for my shop too apparently.

    Could you supply a much simplified version maybe ?

    Just 3 or 4 sentences about the recommended setup for the laser machine and what the BRPs spec is.......and what the improved recommendation is, please ?

    In terms of what you will see on the alignment machine, that is. I don't really care what that translates into in actual toe.

    I need to take mine back so they can have a second shot at it.

  17. #42
    Very Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    1/16” to 1/8” if accurately measured will be a good improvement. However, to be accurate, the measurement must be taken at the tires 3 and 9 oclock positions and I suspect the fenders and bodywork prevent this.

    Also, is that 1/16” or 1/8” with or without a rider on board? Those settings with no rider onboard still retain a toe out setting once the rider is seated and of average, say 200 pound weight.
    You are right ,can only measure on the tire were the body work will allow . 1/8 with no rider.
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  18. #43
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmike 1800 View Post
    You are right ,can only measure on the tire were the body work will allow . 1/8 with no rider.
    Needs a bit more most likely, but depends where on the tire you are checking, realative to the axle center.

  19. #44
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    I went to the dealer today to show him my jig and how it worked. Also brought photos of how it's used on the Spyder. He said that's way too simple but really liked it. He also said if there was any need to check it with buds he would work ot something. So next step, get it done.
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  20. #45
    Very Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    What is the toe in # in the manual . ( i did have a manual on line but it can not be found now )
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmike 1800 View Post
    What is the toe in # in the manual . ( i did have a manual on line but it can not be found now )

    I think manual says .2mm. That's not enough!
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmike 1800 View Post
    What is the toe in # in the manual . ( i did have a manual on line but it can not be found now )
    It's not a straightforward easy to apply number. Basically if the front wheels are exactly parallel to each other and to the frame so that toe-in or toe-out equals zero, then the variation allowed is +/- 5 mm, ~0.2". That is based on the length of the bar that is clamped to the frame and which is about 6' long, 3' in front of the wheel center and 3' behind the wheel center. That is total between wheels. Toe-in/toe-out can be up to .2" over 6'.

    2014 Copper RTS

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    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  23. #48
    Member lindsayw148's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    I have an excellent write-up on laser alignment, I think from you, but it has WAY too much detail for me to follow.....and for my shop too apparently.

    Could you supply a much simplified version maybe ?
    Well... no, not really. My website pages, plus that little rant about Mr Newton's rotten apple, distills the essential factors down to about the minimum. It really ain't rocket science, but there are so many variations in Spyder models, rider and/or passenger sizes, suspension differences and suspension wear that there are no hard-and-fast rules except that, with rider(s) aboard, the bike should have a small amount of toe-in IN MOTION. With average wear in suspension bushes and ball-joints, the front wheels will tend to 'spread' in motion ( toe further out ) by roughly 0.5mm measured across-the-wheel. So you need more toe-in than that to compensate. BRP's specs don't seem to take that into account and a perfectly-aligned bike ends up with virtually zero toe-in... and that becomes toe-out in motion. Using either the Rolo system or wheel stand-offs, the alignment procedure is governed by the fact that the laser targets are 5 times the diameter of the front wheels away, so that's a 5 times magnification factor. For an RT with normal suspension and an average weight rider, the laser dot should be about 8 to 10mm off target center to take all these common vehicle variations into account. That's much greater than the amount of toe-in recommended by BRP. Cars commonly use 1/8" toe-in across-the-wheel, which is about 3.2mm, but that's really a bit too much for the lightweight Spyder – I use 10mm at the targets for an 'average' RT, or 8mm for an average RS, ST, or F3. ...so 2mm across-the-wheel for an RT is FOUR TIMES what BRP recommends! Sad but true.
    Lindsay, originally on a 'poor-man's-ST'... an '08 RS with all the after-market bells and whistles, but now on a '16 F3, furiously adding bells and whistles.
    Sunny Queensland in Australia.

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    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    It's not a straightforward easy to apply number. Basically if the front wheels are exactly parallel to each other and to the frame so that toe-in or toe-out equals zero, then the variation allowed is +/- 5 mm, ~0.2". That is based on the length of the bar that is clamped to the frame and which is about 6' long, 3' in front of the wheel center and 3' behind the wheel center. That is total between wheels. Toe-in/toe-out can be up to .2" over 6'.
    But aren’t you stating the specs for non laser alignment? This is important to know, since those specs utilize strut bars to replace the shocks during alignment and rigidly set the desired ride height. Any deviation from that rigid ride height, on account of rider weight, front payload, spring preload or spring rate will alter the alignment.

  25. #50
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    But aren’t you stating the specs for non laser alignment? This is important to know, since those specs utilize strut bars to replace the shocks during alignment and rigidly set the desired ride height. Any deviation from that rigid ride height, on account of rider weight, front payload, spring preload or spring rate will alter the alignment.
    stmike asked what the manual spec for toe-in is. The above is what the manual spec is. There is no toe-in spec for laser alignment. The toe-in values that are used for laser alignment have been determined by trial and error. And yes, the factory specs are based on using strut bars. I suspect the real world toe-in variation between using the bars and not is probably not much.

    If we are going to be sticklers for the conditions spelled out for the factory method, shouldn't there be equivalent controls on ride height while doing laser alignments? From what I read, and my own experience, the real world impact of variable heights while doing laser alignments is inconsequential.

    2014 Copper RTS

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    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

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