"Restrooms are for customers only"

[UtahPete]

oh you mean your handbook

Wasn't that written by one of our revolutionaries in the British colonies? Our country was founded by radicals, not conservatives.

[vided]

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[Bob Denman]

I always see that sign, especially at the shore, but my first thought is always "Do you think they should mention pants in there someplace ?"

I KNEW that I forgot to tell the sign-painter something...

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Suppose this case had been a Jewish baker who was asked to decorate a cake with a Swastika on it. Virtually everyone in the country would agree with his right to refuse to decorate a cake in that manner, right?

That is exactly the issue here. The baker did not refuse to make a cake but he did refuse to decorate it in the manner the buyers wanted.

Should we then also say a Muslim restaurant owner would be well within his rights to refuse to serve bacon or ham with breakfast?

Some have said that if you don't like the limitations a business operator has, take your business elsewhere. But couldn't we turn that argument around and say if a person wants to operate a business that caters to the public but doesn't want to provide a specific service to a specific part of the public, then he shouldn't enter the business in the first place, or, get into another business. In the case of Jack Phillips and Masterpiece Cakeshop his web page has said for years, "Masterpiece cakes are perfect for any occasion..." But apparently he really did not mean "ANY occasion."

The question really is to what extent does a business operator have a right to pick and choose his customers when he opens a business that ostensibly is open to all? In other words, what kinds of discrimination are we willing to consider moral and legal? That question is not explicitly answered by the SCOTUS ruling.

[Joel The Biker]

And way off topic now too. Just a bunch of grumpy old men on here.

[SpyderConvert]

Found this in another forum this morning.....

Me: I was doing an overnight at a hotel away from home. I took my
computer down to the bar to do some data entries. I sat down at the
bar and I asked the bartender, ‘What’s the wifi password?’

Bartender: 'You need to buy a drink first.'

Me: 'Okay, I’ll have a beer.'

Bartender: 'We have Molson’s Canadian on tap.'

Me: 'Sure. How much is that?'

Bartender: '$8.00.'

Me: 'Here you are. OK now, what’s the wifi password?'

Bartender: ' "youneedtobuyadrinkfirst" . . . no spaces and all lowercase.'

[Rogue Hawk]

Should we then also say a Muslim restaurant owner would be well within his rights to refuse to serve bacon or ham with breakfast?

That is a good question. Can they also refuse service to a women that is not covered or accompanied by a male?

[Rogue Hawk]

And way off topic now too. Just a bunch of grumpy old men on here.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

This really shouldn't be a discussion, a business exists to make money, if it costs money to own a bathroom then
it is for paying customers only at the owners discretion. i have a sign in the back of my shop that says "employees only"
when i see customers walking around i tell them they need to pick up a broom and sweep up or they are not allowed & i point to the sign.

[RinconRyder]

Should we then also say a Muslim restaurant owner would be well within his rights to refuse to serve bacon or ham with breakfast?

There are already restaurants that specialize in specific menu offerings (vegan, Chinese, etc.). Business owners do not have to offer everything to everybody BUT if one were to refuse service to someone wearing a Burka because he/she didn't like Muslims it would be a Federal offense.

Some have said that if you don't like the limitations a business operator has, take your business elsewhere.

That would be my preference. I won't go where I am not wanted.

But couldn't we turn that argument around and say if a person wants to operate a business that caters to the public but doesn't want to provide a specific service to a specific part of the public, then he shouldn't enter the business in the first place, or, get into another business.

Let's say I own a welding shop and a customer comes to me to create a big gate for his residence. He wants a swastika in the middle of each half. I tell him "I will make your gate but will not place a swastika on it."

I think the welder has that right. I think the cake guy was right as well. He didn't refuse service but he did refuse to comply with a decorating request he found offensive.

In the case of Jack Phillips and Masterpiece Cakeshop his web page has said for years, "Masterpiece cakes are perfect for any occasion..." But apparently he really did not mean "ANY occasion."

Such as a swastika for your really nice neighborhood Nazi's?

The question really is to what extent does a business operator have a right to pick and choose his customers when he opens a business that ostensibly is open to all? In other words, what kinds of discrimination are we willing to consider moral and legal? That question is not explicitly answered by the SCOTUS ruling.

That is correct and SCOTUS said so in their ruling. This defined only the specific case against one baker and was based upon one specific action of Colorado law.

What would you think if the baker had said "I will make your cake and hand you the decorating material and you may place two men upon it but you may not advertise it as being a Masterpiece Cakeshop product"?

[RinconRyder]

Found this in another forum this morning.....

Me: I was doing an overnight at a hotel away from home. I took my
computer down to the bar to do some data entries. I sat down at the
bar and I asked the bartender, ‘What’s the wifi password?’

Bartender: 'You need to buy a drink first.'

Me: 'Okay, I’ll have a beer.'

Bartender: 'We have Molson’s Canadian on tap.'

Me: 'Sure. How much is that?'

Bartender: '$8.00.'

Me: 'Here you are. OK now, what’s the wifi password?'

Bartender: ' "youneedtobuyadrinkfirst" . . . no spaces and all lowercase.'

Sometimes it is so obvious! BWA HAAAA HAAAAAA!!!!!

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

am i allowed to go to a store for a koran, pay for it, walk out of the store, tear a page off, blow my nose then
rip all the pages and throw in the garbage? would any of that be illegal? who here would be offended or tell someone
that you CAN'T do that?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

What would you think if the baker had said "I will make your cake and hand you the decorating material and you may place two men upon it but you may not advertise it as being a Masterpiece Cakeshop product"?

Handing over the decorations with the cake probably would have been the smartest solution. I believe he would be within his rights to ask his name not be associated with the cake, but would most likely fail in any attempt to enforce that restriction simply because of what's practical and what isn't. If his business name is trademarked or copyrighted then he has the right to control how it is used. Many companies produce products anonymously.

You could also argue this was purely a contractual situation. Neither party is required to perform the contract if they cannot agree on the terms. If some terms and conditions are dictated by law then they have to be complied with if a contract is agreed to. Think non-discrimination in home and apartment rentals.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

This really shouldn't be a discussion, a business exists to make money, if it costs money to own a bathroom then
it is for paying customers only at the owners discretion. i have a sign in the back of my shop that says "employees only"
when i see customers walking around i tell them they need to pick up a broom and sweep up or they are not allowed & i point to the sign.

I'm not going to bother to look up the pertinent law, but it is my understanding most, if not all, state laws require any establishment that serves food and drink must have restrooms available. It would interesting to know if the law allows the restriction to customer use only, requires they be available to anyone, or is totally silent about the issue. In a situation like yours I don't believe there is any requirement spelled out that says you have to let even paying customers have access to them. Any time I need to use a restroom that is not obviously a public restroom I deem it a courtesy by the business when they let me use it.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

am i allowed to go to a store for a koran, pay for it, walk out of the store, tear a page off, blow my nose then
rip all the pages and throw in the garbage? would any of that be illegal? who here would be offended or tell someone
that you CAN'T do that?

In this country, illegal, no, but it would be viewed as inconsiderate by some people.

[Bob Denman]

And just pretty damned rude by the rest!

[Rogue Hawk]

am i allowed to go to a store for a koran, pay for it, walk out of the store, tear a page off, blow my nose then
rip all the pages and throw in the garbage? would any of that be illegal? who here would be offended or tell someone
that you CAN'T do that?

You can do it. But you may have to deal with the religious wack jobs.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Well forcing the baker to put 2 men on the cake is just as offensive to the baker so why should it be considered
illegal? private business should be run by the rules and standards of the owner not by anyone else.
keep in mind i have no sky father i pray to but i will defend the baker still.

[UtahPete]

Well forcing the baker to put 2 men on the cake is just as offensive to the baker so why should it be considered illegal? private business should be run by the rules and standards of the owner not by anyone else. keep in mind i have no sky father i pray to but i will defend the baker still.

This is a non-issue for small business owners. When was the last time you tried to do something in your business and got shot down by New York's PC police? You're not in Colorado, you're not a baker, and the court ruled for the baker. Why are you trying to make this into something it isn't?

Back to the original thread; you want to put your bathroom off-limits to non-patrons? Go ahead, nobody's stopping you.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

This is a non-issue for small business owners. When was the last time you tried to do something in your business and got shot down by New York's PC police? You're not in Colorado, you're not a baker, and the court ruled for the baker. Why are you trying to make this into something it isn't?

Back to the original thread; you want to put your bathroom off-limits to non-patrons? Go ahead, nobody's stopping you.

I have been winged a few times and if you know anything about ny then you might know to have a body shop pro
shop you have to have handicap accessible bathroom even though you very rarely ever will get a wheel chair at your
shop that will need the bathroom at a cost of $5k on top.

[ThreeWheels]

[Bob Denman]

Drink to That.jpg

[UtahPete]

Drink to That.jpg

Welcome back from Lake George Bob.