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    Why are the employees blaming the company?
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    Very Active Member oldguyinTX's Avatar
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    And Carrier did the same thing. These companies and the rich people who control them take the money and run, and they run overseas where they can't be touched by U.S. law. So how exactly did that tax cut help laid off working class men and women at HD & Carrier, and I wonder how is it going to benefit me, plain old Joe Schmoe? The only "stock" I own is medical bills, and they sure as heck aren't paying me any dividends.
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    Very Active Member oldguyinTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    Why are the employees blaming the company?
    Gee Pete, who do you think made the decision to close plants and move jobs overseas? The Tooth Fairy? Bugs Bunny? Me, I'm kinda thinking it was the Board of Directors, who answer to the shareholders, who want more money in their pockets. Simple, basic economics. Even I can see the logic from their point of view, and I ain't the brightest bulb on the string. The days when you got out of high school or college and went to work for a company that actually provided job security are a thing of the distant past. Companies don't give a rat's ass about workers, it's all about the money, and the more they get, the happier they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguyinCT View Post
    Gee Pete, who do you think made the decision to close plants and move jobs overseas? The Tooth Fairy? Bugs Bunny? Me, I'm kinda thinking it was the Board of Directors, who answer to the shareholders, who want more money in their pockets. Simple, basic economics. Even I can see the logic from their point of view, and I ain't the brightest bulb on the string. The days when you got out of high school or college and went to work for a company that actually provided job security are a thing of the distant past. Companies don't give a rat's ass about workers, it's all about the money, and the more they get, the happier they are.
    But they are just doing what capitalism and free markets demand of them, right? Maybe it's unfettered capitalism (the system) they should be upset with.

    This wouldn't have happened under socialism. Not that I am promoting socialism, but rather pointing out that capitalism is not the worker's friend.
    Last edited by UtahPete; 05-28-2018 at 10:10 AM.
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    Very Active Member oldguyinTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    But they are just doing what capitalism and free markets demand of them, right? Maybe it's unfettered capitalism (the system) they should be upset with.

    This wouldn't have happened under socialism.
    Ain't bit'in on that hook.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguyinCT View Post
    Ain't bit'in on that hook.
    Understood. However I wasn't trolling. Just pointing out basic economic fact.

    Capitalism favors the capitalist, not the worker.
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    Do you think $40,000 motorcycles might have something to do with it ?
    I mean, how many young people have that kind of cash for a toy.
    We all got into motorcycling when you could get out on the road for a few hundred dollars.
    If BRP manages to come out with that sub 10K starter Spyder, that will be a big help.
    As it is, I don't think I'll ever buy a new Spyder again. Way too much money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeWheels View Post
    Do you think $40,000 motorcycles might have something to do with it ? I mean, how many young people have that kind of cash for a toy. We all got into motorcycling when you could get out on the road for a few hundred dollars. If BRP manages to come out with that sub 10K starter Spyder, that will be a big help. As it is, I don't think I'll ever buy a new Spyder again. Way too much money.
    That's how the free market works.
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    Very Active Member ThreeWheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguyinCT View Post
    Ain't bit'in on that hook.
    Good Choice. Some people just love to argue.
    Me ? I'm a lover, not a fighter.
    If it ain't broke, don't break it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeWheels View Post
    Good Choice. Some people just love to argue. Me ? I'm a lover, not a fighter.
    It's supposed to be a discussion. There's been no arguing yet.
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    You can understand the economics of the move, but you can also understand why the employees are a little raw. The company gets a windfall from the new tax laws. They buy back 15 million shares, bump the dividend a 1/2 cent, and then.... wait for it.... close a plant here, open one overseas and lay off workers. Sure, the economics are there for the company. Not so much for workers.

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    Harley seems to be in an identical spot to other businesses who ran big and large during the Boomer years but now that society has changed and the current social class has other desires and options they are finding their products are not in great demand. Not only do the Millennials not want the big cruisers that Harley puts most of its manufacturing and marketing in but they don't have the financial resources to pay the big dollars either. Harley seems to be hoping that some foreign markets will pick up the slack but I doubt those numbers are there either. Most of those markets have pretty significant import taxes and license fees etc., so big displacement bikes are not easy to own financially.

    The other very important thing to note is that here in the USA motorcycles have always been a luxury item. That is not true overseas. People buy bikes for basic transportation - cheaper and much easier on taxes and gas. Harley's don't fit that bill either.

    There might still be a market for some of Harley's products. I'm thinking The Gap or perhaps Old Navy might take in the HD line of orange and black boutique items for the lady in your life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguyinCT View Post
    Gee Pete, who do you think made the decision to close plants and move jobs overseas? The Tooth Fairy? Bugs Bunny? Me, I'm kinda thinking it was the Board of Directors, who answer to the shareholders, who want more money in their pockets. Simple, basic economics. Even I can see the logic from their point of view, and I ain't the brightest bulb on the string. The days when you got out of high school or college and went to work for a company that actually provided job security are a thing of the distant past. Companies don't give a rat's ass about workers, it's all about the money, and the more they get, the happier they are.
    You are absolutely correct. That's how capitalists have always behaved. Nothing new there.

    Worker benefits came about as a result of two things. Companies competing for skilled trade workers. And trade unions. As the demand for those skills decreased and unions lost their bargaining power and lost their political influence, the need for companies to provide benefits and for government to provide worker protections decreased. It has very little to do with individual company management or owners.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RinconRyder View Post
    Most of those markets have pretty significant import taxes and license fees etc., so big displacement bikes are not easy to own financially.
    Which is why H-D needs to manufacture in those markets, to avoid import fees. Those markets also have very little in the way of worker protections and so the burdened cost of labor is far lower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JkRbbt View Post
    You can understand the economics of the move, but you can also understand why the employees are a little raw. The company gets a windfall from the new tax laws. They buy back 15 million shares, bump the dividend a 1/2 cent, and then.... wait for it.... close a plant here, open one overseas and lay off workers. Sure, the economics are there for the company. Not so much for workers.
    I'm just pointing out that H-D management and owners aren't to blame for this decision.

    The great American middle class we all remember wistfully was a product of a growing, regulated industry. Now it is shrinking, becoming a victim of free markets and unfettered capitalism. Moreover, the social safety net designed to protect those on the losing end of the economy due to no fault of their own, is being methodically dismantled.

    Yes, the workers are getting a raw deal. But it's not the fault of H-D managers and owners.

    BTW, I am no fan of unaccountable corporations, but I do understand they are an inevitable reality given our system of government. And, that's all I'm going to say about the "guv'mint" because I don't want this to devolve into a political argument.

    I'd like to stay with facts, if possible.
    Last edited by UtahPete; 05-28-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeWheels View Post
    Do you think $40,000 motorcycles might have something to do with it ?
    I mean, how many young people have that kind of cash for a toy.
    We all got into motorcycling when you could get out on the road for a few hundred dollars.
    If BRP manages to come out with that sub 10K starter Spyder, that will be a big help.
    As it is, I don't think I'll ever buy a new Spyder again. Way too much money.
    x 2. My last two RT's were over $28K. I am NOT crossing the $30K line and thinking of $40K--just blows my mind.

    For less than $30K, I can by some real nice "big iron" on two. Are you listening BRP.

    And there are answers on every side. Let's keep the politics out of it. Companies do, what they are going to do. The bottom line and the "shareholders" reactions have a lot to do with it. There is NO company loyalty to employees any more. That died in the 60's. I have done one 29 year career, one 18 year career, and two 10 year careers. These were overlapping and NOT consecutive. The jobs were not bad, but in ALL, I have been EXPENDIBLE. Eventually, I did what I had to do--MOVE ON when the time became appropriate.
    Last edited by ARtraveler; 05-28-2018 at 06:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguyinCT View Post
    And Carrier did the same thing. These companies and the rich people who control them take the money and run, and they run overseas where they can't be touched by U.S. law. So how exactly did that tax cut help laid off working class men and women at HD & Carrier, and I wonder how is it going to benefit me, plain old Joe Schmoe? The only "stock" I own is medical bills, and they sure as heck aren't paying me any dividends.
    It didn't. It was never intended to.
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    Default The 2nd hand HD market is flooded.....

    Too many 30 yr. olds are still living at home with mom and dad, and they don't have any credit and can't afford a HD or a BRP. If the millennials have any scratch at all they're investing in themselves and not in toys. The boomers are on fixed incomes and fading away fast. This was all predicted by demographics back in the 80's, however few paid any attention. Any producer now coming out with a small cycle at a small price may survive the industry's looming collapse. Something like a small bike that can be plugged in overnight and then will give you 50 miles the next day. Kind'a reminiscent of, "you meet the nicest people on a Honda."

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    Good points all here.

    I think part of what makes the H-D hard to swallow is there are few companies that are viewed as so “American” to the core as they are and few products with such loyalty. This just feels worse and I’ve never even ridden or owned one.

    The millennial problem isn’t just monetary or a flooded market it’s also, and this comment is Calif. biased so I’d be curious as to what parents/grandparents across the rest of the US see, but kids just don’t get outside in the same way as we did 50+ years ago due to electronics delivering life to you now so getting out to seek adventure just doesn’t seem to exist in the same way.

    Just rambling here but but the next generation is just doing something else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
    Good points all here.

    I think part of what makes the H-D hard to swallow is there are few companies that are viewed as so “American” to the core as they are and few products with such loyalty. This just feels worse and I’ve never even ridden or owned one.

    The millennial problem isn’t just monetary or a flooded market it’s also, and this comment is Calif. biased so I’d be curious as to what parents/grandparents across the rest of the US see, but kids just don’t get outside in the same way as we did 50+ years ago due to electronics delivering life to you now so getting out to seek adventure just doesn’t seem to exist in the same way.

    Just rambling here but but the next generation is just doing something else.
    I think your comment on not getting outside as 50 years ago is spot on. Not only the cost of doing so but the crowded conditions of our major highways and in some cases lack of maintenance makes touring not nearly as satisfying as back in mid-century. During the 60's and 70's I used to take weekend and vacation rides all over the place. There are very, very few of those nice rides left. One of my three boys does ride his crotch rocket every chance he gets but no interest by the others.

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    Should have also mentioned with the number of cars on the road and distracted drivers we also, ok me, are not encouraging my kids to ride at all. Especially in urban Ca.

    Cylcling isn’t the only casualty though. I’ve mentioned Boy Scout enrollment being down in another thread and my father in law is an avid fly fisherman and he said youth just aren’t filling the pipeline and learning which is causing rod, reel, fly makers and tour operators etc. a lot of concern.

    Circle of of life I guess but I have a lot of good memories of all these things.
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    My SO and I discuss HD quite a bit off and on. We're both fascinated by economic trends. We both agree that HD is trying to attract a market that cannot afford it. Their new line of expensive bikes may have been released a just a tad too late to keep the big company at the same rate it has been. I know when I was looking at bikes, and gear, HD was just too expensive at the time for me.
    Now Indian is doing well, yet they have a similar line, I suspect because they haven't over expanded or/and invested in much brick and mortar in retail.

    The other thing that HD has going against them, is their image. That rough and rowdy, nose up to anyone outside a HD biker mentality isn't exactly inviting. I get image is important, but sometimes it can work against you.

    Both of these reasons is why when my SO's 23 yr old son was getting his first "new" bike, he did not look hard into HDs. He had zero interest in the image and he wanted the biggest bang for his $$. He ended up getting a Yahama Raider. Which is perfect for him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiry View Post
    My SO and I discuss HD quite a bit off and on. We're both fascinated by economic trends. We both agree that HD is trying to attract a market that cannot afford it. Their new line of expensive bikes may have been released a just a tad too late to keep the big company at the same rate it has been. I know when I was looking at bikes, and gear, HD was just too expensive at the time for me.
    Now Indian is doing well, yet they have a similar line, I suspect because they haven't over expanded or/and invested in much brick and mortar in retail.

    The other thing that HD has going against them, is their image. That rough and rowdy, nose up to anyone outside a HD biker mentality isn't exactly inviting. I get image is important, but sometimes it can work against you.

    Both of these reasons is why when my SO's 23 yr old son was getting his first "new" bike, he did not look hard into HDs. He had zero interest in the image and he wanted the biggest bang for his $$. He ended up getting a Yahama Raider. Which is perfect for him.
    Just reminded me a friend of my brothers just bought a Triumph for about 10k I think. Beautiful bike, few frills, but classic lines. Don’t think he considered a Harley either.

    As for image you are right too, I think that does come into it.
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