DEATH OF AMERICAN STEEL

[oldguyinTX]

If you want to see the remnants of the American steel industry, take a ride to Bethlehem PA, and you will see the haunting images of our steel industry in abandoned steel plants. The result of greed and lack of foresight by Bethlehem Steel. People who worked there have no pension or benefits, and have no future. Is this the American way?

[Chupaca]

Without them we would be speaking German and Japanese today. Maybe making imports more expensive will fire them back up...

[RinconRyder]

Without them we would be speaking German and Japanese today. Maybe making imports more expensive will fire them back up...

We have a phenomenal misunderstanding of economics on this board. You do realize, do you not, that when a tariff is placed upon foreign goods two things happen:

1. Fewer goods are imported (the market is smaller due to the higher price).
2. The AMERICAN buyers of these goods pay more and that higher cost trickles down to the end customer.

For metal imports, both foreign steel and aluminum have higher costs to the American customer now (think Detroit for example). So now the automakers who build vehicles in this country will pay more for their raw materials. Guess what this does to the finished product which will wind up on American sales floors? That's right. YOU will pay more when you buy anything made with these materials. Higher prices = lower sales = less demand = workers out of jobs.

Really smart, isn't it?

And that isn't taking into account that foreign manufacturer and his government get mad about the tariffs and decide to put a higher tariff on the goods we export to them which further reduces their demand and also results in layoffs in the USA.

The coal miners found out T-rump does not understand labor, production and demand principles. He also does not understand the effects of a trade war (upon which he has fired the first shot). Steel and aluminum workers are about to find out this same sad story - as well as anyone who buys products made with steel or aluminum.

[LateLifeCrisis]

From Baltimore Magazine: "During WWII The Bethlehem Steel yard in Sparrows Point is pumping out 10,000 tons of steel per day. Across the harbor, shipyards manned by 47,000 workers are using much of that steel to build ships, many of them the gray Liberty cargo ships that ferry supplies to the war in Europe and the Pacific.

A few miles up Eastern Avenue, Glen L. Martin's aircraft plant is churning out B-26 Marauder bombers every day, a total of 5,157 during the war. That massive plant in Middle River employs 53,000 people—35 percent of whom are women who have been enlisted into factory service by the shortage of able-bodied men. The raw materials for this giant industrial complex roll in on the B&O Railroad. They ship out of Baltimore's booming port.

Following World War II, Bethlehem Steel in Sparrows Point became the largest steel plant in the world—and Baltimore's largest employer. Working class laborers flocked to Baltimore, building houses, schools, and neighborhoods.

Fast forward to the economic changes of the 70's: As the steel industry foundered, so did Baltimore's stable urban population—the middle class migrated to the suburbs and the urban working class dissolved."

Now look at Baltimore - - unemployment, poverty, and now has passed New York and Chicago as the Murder Capital of the World. Just sad - - very, very sad.

[Chupaca]

We have a phenomenal misunderstanding of economics on this board. You do realize, do you not, that when a tariff is placed upon foreign goods two things happen:

1. Fewer goods are imported (the market is smaller due to the higher price).
2. The AMERICAN buyers of these goods pay more and that higher cost trickles down to the end customer.

For metal imports, both foreign steel and aluminum have higher costs to the American customer now (think Detroit for example). So now the automakers who build vehicles in this country will pay more for their raw materials. Guess what this does to the finished product which will wind up on American sales floors? That's right. YOU will pay more when you buy anything made with these materials. Higher prices = lower sales = less demand = workers out of jobs.

Really smart, isn't it?

And that isn't taking into account that foreign manufacturer and his government get mad about the tariffs and decide to put a higher tariff on the goods we export to them which further reduces their demand and also results in layoffs in the USA.

The coal miners found out T-rump does not understand labor, production and demand principles. He also does not understand the effects of a trade war (upon which he has fired the first shot). Steel and aluminum workers are about to find out this same sad story - as well as anyone who buys products made with steel or aluminum.

All of what you say is true..which I know as do most all of us but....based on the American people doing nothing to make their own and ccontinue to depend on others...I don't do politics I do people and we made the best steel before we can do it again...so if we open the mills and put Americans to work producing steel how would that fit in the picture you painted..? Don't really need answer....

[RinconRyder]

All of what you say is true..which I know as do most all of us but....based on the American people doing nothing to make their own and ccontinue to depend on others...I don't do politics I do people and we made the best steel before we can do it again...so if we open the mills and put Americans to work producing steel how would that fit in the picture you painted..? Don't really need answer....

Your post deserves an answer.

One of the ways we lost the steel war was that foreign manufacturers built much more efficient and smaller mills. They were able to produce a quality product at a lower cost than our "outdated" WWII mills (which had done so much to win WWII). We did not notice they were eating our lunch during the 1950's because our economy was so good. Then the world caught up and we had a problem.

Regarding the old mills near Bethlehem, PA......my son moved up there some years ago. His first condo was in one of those old mills. They kept the outside as it was and redeveloped the insides and were very pleasant to live in. Interestingly, they left a lot of the old hoists in place so you can walk inside in the atrium and look up and see the control station and all the big lifts they used to move the huge steel around the plant. Down the street they turned one mill into a large casino. It is very fancy and a great repurpose job. Both are just feet away from a river and live train tracks come within 4 feet of the corner of the building (average speeds are walking speeds).

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

In 1983 I was selling photocopiers in western Illinois/eastern Iowa when I ran into a guy whose business was insulating furnace exhaust ducts in factories. We're talking big furnaces, like what are used in steel mills. He said at that time the steel producers in Pittsburgh could bring in steel billets from Brazil for less money than what it cost to produce the steel from ore mined in Minnesota.

T's tariffs on steel are playing right into the hands of the Chinese. They've been looking for a good reason to shut down old polluting steel mills to help clean the environment and bring production capacity into line with demand. On the news today it's reported the Chinese are not fussing, yet anyway, about the tariffs.

[loisk]

Why would China be at all fussed about the steel tariffs!?

Do you think this is aimed at China? Bzzzz thank you for playing, but no

Here, from trade.gov, ie your govt, are the top ten countries (by volume) from which you import steel - as at sept 2017

Canada 16%
Brazil 13%
South Korea 10%
Russia, yes, Russia 9%
Mexico 9%
Turkey 7%
Japan 5%
Taiwan 4%
Germany 3%
India 2%

[wyliec]

T's tariffs on steel are playing right into the hands of the Chinese. They've been looking for a good reason to shut down old polluting steel mills to help clean the environment and bring production capacity into line with demand. On the news today it's reported the Chinese are not fussing, yet anyway, about the tariffs.

Why would they need T's tariffs as a reason to shut down polluting plants, if they were really concerned about cleaning the environment? Bringing production capacity into line with demand makes sense.

[C. Lee]

As of this moment, no one has seen any pricing impact on any goods as a result of the tariffs. Everything people are talking about here is theory because it hasn't happened yet. They are framing this as an anti trump issue by claiming only negative things will happen as if we have had such great success already. Now I am a simple guy, not well educated by some standards and in my world and what I can see from my world, things are going very well. In my business, I am seeing better numbers than at any time in my career, poeple are going back to work in manufacturing, not just retail. In 2008 Pres. ***** stood at the Chrysler plant in Twinsburg, OH and told us that nothing would change in the auto world. Now that plant has been closed, torn down and is now a shipping facility, the Ford engine plant in Brookpark, OH is 1/3 the size it was in 2008. I don't know how to explain those things. Here in Ohio, the steel plant in Cleveland LTV Steel closed in the early 2000's, it reopened several years later under ISG and is now Arcelor Mittal. I don't know how many people it employes but 3 of them are in my family. It was announced last week the Republic Steel will reopen it's Lorain, OH plant and put 1000 people to work in that plant.

I know when some people talk about jobs they only talk about health care, tech sector jobs ones that require high amounts of education or training or retail jobs, they don't talk about manufacturing or trades. It's these jobs that lifted america into it's position on the top of the world and anything that can make the middle class stronger is a good thing in my book. Will some people get richer, absolutely. But so what. Just my two cents. Chris

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Why would they need T's tariffs as a reason to shut down polluting plants, if they were really concerned about cleaning the environment? Bringing production capacity into line with demand makes sense.

I should have said excuse, not reason.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

aluminum is expected to go up 10 cents/lb. which will help the secondary market & recycling market. your junk
car will get you a little extra at the scrapper too.

[Machinegunner]

Why not give the President time to prove his ideas instead of condemning everything he does? The high price of our steel along with high prices for our cars was caused a lot by high labor cost. If the President's tariffs work, maybe the other counties will lower their's to be more fair. He likes to propose more than he expects to get, then walks it back so all concerned can agree.

[Holly]

Why not give the President time to prove his ideas instead of condemning everything he does? The high price of our steel along with high prices for our cars was caused a lot by high labor cost. If the President's tariffs work, maybe the other counties will lower their's to be more fair. He likes to propose more than he expects to get, then walks it back so all concerned can agree.

The guy could come up with a cure for Cancer and they still would find something to complain about.

[vided]

They'd bitch about all the lost jobs

[Lew L]

The guy could come up with a cure for Cancer and they still would find something to complain about.

+1

[RinconRyder]

As of this moment, no one has seen any pricing impact on any goods as a result of the tariffs. Everything people are talking about here is theory because it hasn't happened yet.

They are talking about it because it has happened before. Trade wars are doubly damaging - to both parties. Proven time and time again. You haven't seen pricing issues yet because it takes weeks or months for raw materials to be turned into finished products. Wait until the 2019 cars and trucks are announced. If this tariff remains in place you will see the results then.

They are framing this as an anti trump issue by claiming only negative things will happen as if we have had such great success already. Now I am a simple guy, not well educated by some standards and in my world and what I can see from my world, things are going very well. In my business, I am seeing better numbers than at any time in my career, poeple are going back to work in manufacturing, not just retail. In 2008 Pres. ***** stood at the Chrysler plant in Twinsburg, OH and told us that nothing would change in the auto world. Now that plant has been closed, torn down and is now a shipping facility, the Ford engine plant in Brookpark, OH is 1/3 the size it was in 2008. I don't know how to explain those things. Here in Ohio, the steel plant in Cleveland LTV Steel closed in the early 2000's, it reopened several years later under ISG and is now Arcelor Mittal. I don't know how many people it employes but 3 of them are in my family. It was announced last week the Republic Steel will reopen it's Lorain, OH plant and put 1000 people to work in that plant.

Not one of those events you documented was by government directive. Those are all private companies and they constantly shift workloads and production to meet deadlines, cost of production, staffing and other economic factors. Those are all normal events in the manufacturing world.

I know when some people talk about jobs they only talk about health care, tech sector jobs ones that require high amounts of education or training or retail jobs, they don't talk about manufacturing or trades. It's these jobs that lifted america into it's position on the top of the world and anything that can make the middle class stronger is a good thing in my book. Will some people get richer, absolutely. But so what. Just my two cents. Chris

Manufacturing got the USA on top because of WWII. Every other industrialized country in the world was devastated. Germany and Japan were bombed into rubble. The USSR had moved almost its entire heavy manufacturing capacity beyond the Ural mountains to prevent the Germans from bombing it. The UK still had a great deal of its manufacturing capability but it was so far in debt it could not afford to modernize. China had no significant manufacturing at all. The USA wound up #1 by default. The post war recovery changed all that. Japan and Germany were rebuilt. The USSR and China emerged. We were suddenly in competition with our Allies and found our standard of living was pricing us out of markets.

...

[RinconRyder]

Why not give the President time to prove his ideas instead of condemning everything he does? The high price of our steel along with high prices for our cars was caused a lot by high labor cost. If the President's tariffs work, maybe the other counties will lower their's to be more fair. He likes to propose more than he expects to get, then walks it back so all concerned can agree.

Without turning this thread into a political discussion please tell us just what the president has proposed that is currently in force and working? I don't see it.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

The guy could come up with a cure for Cancer and they still would find something to complain about.

someone would then complain about overpopulation then we would need wars to control population

[Bob Denman]

Why not give the President time to prove his ideas instead of condemning everything he does? The high price of our steel along with high prices for our cars was caused a lot by high labor cost. If the President's tariffs work, maybe the other counties will lower their's to be more fair. He likes to propose more than he expects to get, then walks it back so all concerned can agree.

Thank you!
So is it better to import foreign goods that cost less money: but kill our jobs?
Or pay more for what we buy; and have more jobs created?

[JerryB]

Hi Chris,

Re: Just my two cents.

That's about what any of us has to offer.

When Watt perfected the steam engine, the end of manual labor in manufacturing was doomed. Ever hear of the Luddites?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

In the history of mankind, we have continually been trying to decrease the amount of labor to do any task.

It is just that manufacturing is the first & easiest to automate. Today, designers are working on how to pick crops with machinery; and there goes those jobs.

Today, the number of workers to build a car is a mere fraction of what is was for Henry Ford.

Quite a few years ago, a couple of Yale professers wrote a book ( I do not remember the name of it ) that said, the manufacturing jobs that went overseas are not coming back. I realize that some will, but again, only a fraction.

The world is changing, the train is moving. You can choose to get on board to watch it fade in the distance.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryB]

Hi Bob,

Re: So is it better to import foreign goods that cost less money: but kill our jobs?

Have you ever shopped at WalMart? If so, then you support 'kill our jobs.'

I have never shopped at WalMart & never will for this very reason.

Jerry Baumchen

[Holly]

Without turning this thread into a political discussion please tell us just what the president has proposed that is currently in force and working? I don't see it.

This is exactly why people shouldn't do drugs.




(While I 100% disagree with you and could give plenty of examples, that above was all in fun)

[R FUN]

The high tariff talk on steel and aluminum can only cause problems on both side of the border. We sell you the raw material but then buy it back in automobiles, trucks, machinery etc. If we then put the tariff on these imports then we will be buying more Toyoto, Nissan, Subaru etc. Three of my friends have just bought Toyota vehicles lately. I own a Dodge,a Ram [both US vehicles}, and a Mercedes and would not think twice about buying a Toyota Tundra if that happened. Nobody will win plus blackmale is not the way to deal.
Roger

[Rogue Hawk]

Never!!!!!