US imposes 300% import tariff on Bombardier

[jaherbst]

That's incorrect. They are separate companies. Both publicly traded. Bombardier inc. has no equity in BRP. If Bombardier had any equity ownership in any other company. That would have been sold long ago trying to stay out of bankruptcy.

Not according to Wikipedia. Bombardier Inc. is still the parent company for Aerospace, Transportation, Locomotive, Can Am and of course Snowmobiles

which Joseph-Armond Bombardier started this mega conglomerate with.

Jack

[White Lightening]

This is nothing new, Boeing, Airbus, the Brazilian aircraft maker, all have been in and out of these disputes for years. They drag on for years before being settled (sometimes by the WTO) and all of them have won and lost decisions against each other. Airbus has a big part to play in this too.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ram/770476001/

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Not according to Wikipedia. Bombardier Inc. is still the parent company for Aerospace, Transportation, Locomotive, Can Am and of course Snowmobiles

which Joseph-Armond Bombardier started this mega conglomerate with.

Jack

From the BRP document BRP Annual Information form, March 31, 2017.

In 2003, while operating as a division of Bombardier Inc., the Company was sold by Bombardier
Inc. to an investor group including Bain Capital Luxembourg Investments S.à r.l. (“Bain Capital”),
members of the Bombardier and Beaudoin families and Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec
(“CDPQ”).

From the Bombardier Annual Report for 2016.

We are the world’s leading manufacturer of both planes and trains, operating under four reportable segments:
Business Aircraft, Commercial Aircraft, Aerostructures and Engineering Services and Transportation. We are
providing more efficient, sustainable and enjoyable transportati on solutions. Our products, services, and most
of all, our 66,000 dedicated and highly skilled employees are w hat makes us a global leader in mobility and
innovation. As at the date of this report, we have 73 production and engineering sites in 29 countries and a
worldwide network of service centres.

The Bombardier and Beaudoin families own shares in both companies, but the companies are two entirely separate entities.

[kngfsh27]

I agree plus a large portion of HD motorcycles are Not build in the USA & some of the parts like the Struts/shocks are built by Honda's subsidy "Showa" in Sunbury, OH.. Electronics from Japan.

The engines and frames are still built in the US. What other large portion are you talking about?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I agree plus a large portion of HD motorcycles are Not build in the USA & some of the parts like the Struts/shocks are built by Honda's subsidy "Showa" in Sunbury, OH.. Electronics from Japan.

The engines and frames are still built in the US. What other large portion are you talking about?

There was a time several years ago that there was more American content in a Honda Goldwing than in HD. But it's almost hopeless to figure what parts came from where. I've read where many auto parts have crossed the Mexico and Canada borders multiple times by the time they are in a completed component, let alone the final product. I imagine many motorcycle parts are included in that back and forth game. For example, an electrical harness may have wire from Taiwan, terminal bits from China, plastic housings from US, all assembled in Japan. Who made the part? No good answer.

For all we know the shocks Wildrice refers to may have rubber seals from Japan, pistons made in Mexico from steel from China, and so on, all put together in Ohio. Made in XXX is almost meaningless today. Don't be surprised if those HD engines made in the US have timing gears from Taiwan, or wherever, in them. I would not be at all surprised if the block castings come from China, with final machining here. That's why the President's desire to see NAFTA killed might end up constipating US manufacturing rather than helping it.

[UtahPete]

There was a time several years ago that there was more American content in a Honda Goldwing than in HD. But it's almost hopeless to figure what parts came from where. I've read where many auto parts have crossed the Mexico and Canada borders multiple times by the time they are in a completed component, let alone the final product. I imagine many motorcycle parts are included in that back and forth game. For example, an electrical harness may have wire from Taiwan, terminal bits from China, plastic housings from US, all assembled in Japan. Who made the part? No good answer.

For all we know the shocks Wildrice refers to may have rubber seals from Japan, pistons made in Mexico from steel from China, and so on, all put together in Ohio. Made in XXX is almost meaningless today. Don't be surprised if those HD engines made in the US have timing gears from Taiwan, or wherever, in them. I would not be at all surprised if the block castings come from China, with final machining here. That's why the President's desire to see NAFTA killed might end up constipating US manufacturing rather than helping it.

Well said. Thanks.

[Fat Baxter]

I don't think so. It definitely protected HD so they could raise their prices but its effect upon the Japanese big CC engines was minimal.

What it did do was encourage the Japanese "big 3" to reduce the size of their engines and come out with better performing, yet cheaper, street machines. Since HD buyers generally don't buy on price and wouldn't be caught dead riding Japanese machines it had very little impact on the market overall.

I recall things a bit differently. The US imposed a large tariff on imported bikes 750cc and larger. In response, the Japanese started making machines around 600-650cc to squeeze in under the threshhold. But they also started wringing more performance out of those smaller engines to make up the performance gap: higher compression rations, four valves per cylinder, better metallurgy, five- and six-speed transmissions, lighter weight frames, etc.

When the tariff was lifted, the Japanese began building larger bikes again while also bringing along the better engine technology.

And thus was born the superbike era.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

When the tariff was lifted, the Japanese began building larger bikes again while also bringing along the better engine technology.

And thus was born the superbike era.

To HD's credit they asked for the tariff to be ended early. They had shaped up their quality and felt plenty confident of their ability to compete with the Japanese head on without the support of the tariffs.

When I worked for the Army the people on the assembly line at McAlester Army Ammunition Plant in OK said they could tell immediately when bomb bodies made by HD came down the line. They were built better than other producers' bomb bodies were.

[RinconRyder]

Yes, it's the W800 now tho I think they're no longer being produced but some stock still available.



https://kawasaki.com.au/shop/motorcy.../2016-w800-se/

Stick an old Norton Featherbed frame under that motor and you would have a great ride!

[RinconRyder]

HD's AMF management nearly killed the breed as well.

[UtahPete]

HD's AMF management nearly killed the breed as well.

I'd forgotten about that. It was mystifying to me at the time. Couldn't understand the synergy with a bowling machine manufacturer.

[johnsimion]

The tariff is cheaper than using American labor. If we forced all manufacturers to make their goods in the US, only the top 1% could afford to buy anything. There's no simple answer to the world trade issues.

When did things change? Because when I grew up, almost everything was made in America and somehow we could still afford to buy stuff. It was that way for sure through the 1970s. In fact, it wasn't that many years ago that Wal-Mart was advertising all the products they carried that were made in America.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The tariff is cheaper than using American labor. If we forced all manufacturers to make their goods in the US, only the top 1% could afford to buy anything. There's no simple answer to the world trade issues.

You're correct, no simple answers. I think it was about 20 years ago, but guess who the highest paid auto workers were. If you said US you would be wrong. It was Japan. Don't know how they compare today. Automation was the big difference in cost of producing cars, plus, and this may surprise many, medical insurance benefits. Don't know what the number is today but 10 or 15 years ago about $1000 of the cost of every car produced in the US was to pay medical costs for employees. For Japanese cars the cost is zero. That is one impact a national health program can have.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I'd forgotten about that. It was mystifying to me at the time. Couldn't understand the synergy with a bowling machine manufacturer.

It was shortly after AMF sold HD to the investor group that the tariffs were put in place to help HD to recover.

[MurrayBrown]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/trade/88867...-on-bombardier “This hypocrisy is appalling” the spokesperson added, “and it should be deeply troubling to any importer of large, complex, and highly engineered products.” could the Spyder be next ... ?

This is old, old, news. Applies only to the Bombardier C Series aircraft.

[SpyderNeil]

This is old, old, news. Applies only to the Bombardier C Series aircraft.

Bombardier partnered with AirBus over a month ago to side step that ruling, so American buyers won't have to pay the tariff.
Also the Canadian Gov. has appeared to have cancelled their order for a bunch of F18 fighter jets from Boeing, so it looks like Boeing will loose a big sale over their actions!

Neil

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

This is old, old, news. Applies only to the Bombardier C Series aircraft.

There must be something fairly recent about it. The article is dated Oct 7, 2017.

[ARtraveler]

You're correct, no simple answers. I think it was about 20 years ago, but guess who the highest paid auto workers were. If you said US you would be wrong. It was Japan. Don't know how they compare today. Automation was the big difference in cost of producing cars, plus, and this may surprise many, medical insurance benefits. Don't know what the number is today but 10 or 15 years ago about $1000 of the cost of every car produced in the US was to pay medical costs for employees. For Japanese cars the cost is zero. That is one impact a national health program can have.

Today, it is about $3,000 per car--or higher.

[RinconRyder]

When did things change? Because when I grew up, almost everything was made in America and somehow we could still afford to buy stuff. It was that way for sure through the 1970s. In fact, it wasn't that many years ago that Wal-Mart was advertising all the products they carried that were made in America.

Things changed because the rest of the world recovered from the devastation of WWII. Among first world countries the USA was the only significant one with virtually no battle damage and its industries were in high gear as a result of producing war materiel for the previous six years. In addition, there was tremendous pent up demand from the US population for cars, houses and other material things that could not be bought during the war years - and civilians had money to pay for these things because of the mandatory wage and price controls during the war.

But during these same 1950's and 60's not everything was Made in America. If you wanted precision camera equipment it came from Germany. England produced quality musical instruments. Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.

[UtahPete]

Things changed because the rest of the world recovered from the devastation of WWII. Among first world countries the USA was the only significant one with virtually no battle damage and its industries were in high gear as a result of producing war materiel for the previous six years. In addition, there was tremendous pent up demand from the US population for cars, houses and other material things that could not be bought during the war years - and civilians had money to pay for these things because of the mandatory wage and price controls during the war.

But during these same 1950's and 60's not everything was Made in America. If you wanted precision camera equipment it came from Germany. England produced quality musical instruments. Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.

Well said.

[JerryB]

Hi Idaho,

Re: That is one impact a national health program can have.

About 30 yrs ago I read an article by this reporter who had been planning on writing a book about automobile manufacturing in this country. While interviewing the president of one of the big three, the president said that he was not in the automobile business, he was in the health care business. He said that more than 70% of his time was spent on trying to reduce costs of health insurance to his company.

Jerry Baumchen

[UtahPete]

Re: That is one impact a national health program can have. About 30 yrs ago I read an article by this reporter who had been planning on writing a book about automobile manufacturing in this country. While interviewing the president of one of the big three, the president said that he was not in the automobile business, he was in the health care business. He said that more than 70% of his time was spent on trying to reduce costs of health insurance to his company. Jerry Baumchen

Yep. The entire country would benefit, socially and economically, if we could have a rational, nonpartisan study of reducing the cost of health care in the USA. Too many special interests (mostly insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies) for that to ever happen.

[blitzkreig]

It was shortly after AMF sold HD to the investor group that the tariffs were put in place to help HD to recover.

In the end I believe that it was HD’s experiment with Total Quality Management (TQM) principles first put into Japan after WWII.

Once HD had the management tools that could make a machine that didn’t shake apart and leak oil like a sieve the US buyer came out of the woodwork and tariffs didn’t have a lot to do with it ...

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

In the end I believe that it was HD’s experiment with Total Quality Management (TQM) principles first put into Japan after WWII.

Once HD had the management tools that could make a machine that didn’t shake apart and leak oil like a sieve the US buyer came out of the woodwork and tariffs didn’t have a lot to do with it ...

You're mostly correct!! HD didn't experiment with TQM, they implemented TQM. That was the operating principle that got them back into the graces of the American motorcycle market while the tariffs shielded them from onerous Japanese competition. When HD had become fit and trim and in super fighting form and could hold their own is when they asked the administration, or Congress, or whoever, to rescind the tariffs.

[CrashDavis]

The article states: "The US Chamber of Commerce has rejected an appeal against the huge tariffs it has imposed..."

I must be missing something, as the COC is not a government agency, when does a private organization get to impose tariffs?