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  1. #1
    Very Active Member AbNormy's Avatar
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    Default rust on front pulley

    Trying to figure out how to post pics of my front pulley wondering what causes it on a 12 RT. Is pulley working it's way loose?IMG_20171110_135151.jpgIMG_20171110_135146.jpgrust
    Last edited by AbNormy; 11-10-2017 at 04:12 PM.
    living the dream love my spyder!

  2. #2
    Active Member papanorm's Avatar
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    Default

    There is a thread going on right now about front sprocket failures on F3 models. You can scroll down the current topics and find 256 posts. It appears yours needs replacing as well.

  3. #3
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default re-place pulley

    Quote Originally Posted by papanorm View Post
    There is a thread going on right now about front sprocket failures on F3 models. You can scroll down the current topics and find 256 posts. It appears yours needs replacing as well.
    ..... why should He re-place His pulley ....... IMHO He should check the Torque on the nut , but RE-PLACE IT ... I wouldn't based on some rust ..............Mike

  4. #4
    Active Member Snowbelt Spyder's Avatar
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    Default rest Dust

    Clearly, that should say Red Dust. Anyway....

    Looks a little unusual for a 2012 RT, but based on the findings in that F3 thread...

    http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...ket-Inspection

    ...the red dust has become an acceptable tell-tale indication that there's some movement. Read through that thread.

    It's not just the sprocket rusting on the surface, but it seems to be a fine dust from movement between the splines, the sprocket and that washer and bolt. I guess if I saw that, I would pull the bolt and have a look see. Remember, the bolt is a one time use thing, so order a replacement. It comes with a thread locker - Scotch Grip - already installed. So, it's a one use deal.

    As a matter of routine maintenance, it's good practice to put a torque wrench on that bolt and check tightness at every oil change. 92 ft/lbs for the 5 speed gearbox. The 6 speeds might even be the same value, I'm not sure on that one. The good news is that the hub inside the sprocket is designed to be a softer metal than the gearbox output shaft. So, your shaft should be OK if this has been caught early.
    Last edited by Snowbelt Spyder; 11-11-2017 at 07:30 AM.


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  5. #5
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    Default

    Several RT owners have lost their front sprocket also, ME included. they are $104 ea., which is much cheaper than the tow I paid for and the challenges of being broken down on a Sunday 100 miles from home........

  6. #6
    SpyderLovers Sponsor Roadster Renovations's Avatar
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    Mike evidently has not been following the F3 thread about this. The dealer will replace at the sign of red rust. You probably are out of warranty, so I would go through Cheap Cycle Parts for a new bolt and sprocket instead of screwing around with it.
    Procedure to replace is as follows:
    1. Support the rear of the byke in front of the converter.
    2. Remove Air Ryde swing arm bolt (if equipped - left side front of swing arm) You may have to remove the belt guards to get to it.
    3. Let as much of the air out of the airbag. This will allow for more travel without damage.
    4. Remove the rear bottom shock bolt. Jacking up at this point a little will help the bolt to slide out. Once the bolt is out, raise the byke until the wheel is just off of the ground.
    5. Stabilize the bike as you will be removing the sprocket and you don't want it rocky.
    6. Remove the belt from the rear and then the front of the sprocket.
    7. Remove the sprocket bolt. You may have to hold backup with a chain wrench. If it is stuck you may need to apply a little heat to break the loctite, hopefully not.
    8. Pull the sprocket and thoroughly clean the shaft spline, then inspect for damage.
    At this point there are four basic schools of thought:
    A. Leave it bare install and torque with a new bolt. X's go to the byke and stamped numbers out.
    B. Cover the bolt hole with tape and apply a light coat of molly lubricant on the splines of the pulley. Install pulley, remove excess moly, install new bolt and torque.
    C. Cover the bolt hole and apply a coat of Loctite 660 to the flanges of the pulley (probably best choice if shaft spline damage). Install pulley, remove excess and install and torque the new bolt.
    D. Cover the bolt hole and apply a thin coat of RTV on the pulley splines. Then, where the pulley will seat on the shaft, apply a larger bead around so that when the pulley is on it will seal the inner portion of the spline from moisture and the subsequent corrosion. The last step is to apply another bead around the outer area when the two splines seam is. Put the new bolt in and torque to specs.
    Installation is the reverse of removal.

    Since the above concepts with the exception of A are all experimental, no one can really say what is going to be the go to method. I, myself like the RTV as it will be a moisture barrier as well as a cushion from spline damaging conditions.

    I saw one grenade in Maggie Valley and it stripped every spline off of the pulley. Guy was just sitting at a light and went to take off and ZING!, no movement. For myself, I would not ryde it without replacing if it's showing the red rust. As I said, the dealer is replacing them just on that reason alone. It is more economical for them to be pro active on this since there is always a chance the failure might cause shaft damage. Which requires engine/trans removal to replace the shaft. $$$$$ plus being stranded.

    Hope you get it straightened out.

  7. #7
    Very Active Member Chupaca's Avatar
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    Default Time to check things out....

    Clear sign that you should pull the sproket off and inspect the area. You will have to replace the bolt and washer as recommended but you will be able to see if the sprocket and shaft are waring . I did that then put it all back, ordered the parts from cheapcycleparts.com and when they arrived replaced the sprocket, bolt and washer...
    Gene and Ilana De Laney
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  8. #8
    SpyderLovers Sponsor cptjam's Avatar
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    Default Probably bad

    Norm,
    buy a new bolt and pulley. Even if it is not toast, it is mighty close! Think of it as PM item. R/R and be done with it! Joe
    Joe Meyer



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  9. #9
    Very Active Member AbNormy's Avatar
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    Default THANKS

    Quote Originally Posted by cptjam View Post
    Norm,
    buy a new bolt and pulley. Even if it is not toast, it is mighty close! Think of it as PM item. R/R and be done with it! Joe
    ordered the pulley and bolt guess Ill get it done...question if I had torqued pulley bolt every other oil change would that have prevented this from happening or is there no way around it they just wear out? should I lube the splines with moly grease or does it matter in your experience?
    living the dream love my spyder!

  10. #10
    SpyderLovers Sponsor Roadster Renovations's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbNormy View Post
    ordered the pulley and bolt guess Ill get it done...question if I had torqued pulley bolt every other oil change would that have prevented this from happening or is there no way around it they just wear out? should I lube the splines with moly grease or does it matter in your experience?
    Just my .02, but I think that retorquing would break the loctite seal and render it (the loctite) useless. I am probably going to use RTV on mine when I do it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadster Renovations View Post
    Just my .02, but I think that retorquing would break the loctite seal and render it (the loctite) useless. I am probably going to use RTV on mine when I do it.
    would not use RTV on the bolt, if that's what you meant. RTV won't secure the bolt.
    RTV on the splines is not a bad idea.
    Wear between the spline on the shaft and the sprocket will occur and would be very difficult to completely eliminate. It just seems to occur more on the Spyder.
    2017 F3, SM6-basic black, plain and simple

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofdave View Post
    would not use RTV on the bolt, if that's what you meant. RTV won't secure the bolt.
    RTV on the splines is not a bad idea.
    Wear between the spline on the shaft and the sprocket will occur and would be very difficult to completely eliminate. It just seems to occur more on the Spyder.
    Yes, thanks for clariying; I would use RTV on the splines, seal the inner and outer area to make it water tight. The bolt will be a new one with the threadlocker already applied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadster Renovations View Post
    Yes, thanks for clariying; I would use RTV on the splines, seal the inner and outer area to make it water tight. The bolt will be a new one with the threadlocker already applied.
    interesting about "water tight"
    I posted a link in the F3 pulley thread with info on that
    water is not causing the rust, it is the interaction (movement) between the shaft and the pulley. You'll get the iron oxide on the pulley even if it's never been wet.
    I believe the pulley alloy could be made harder to minimize the iron oxide occurring.
    And you're right, a new bolt is a must. The bolt stretches (as it should) and reusing is not advisable.
    2017 F3, SM6-basic black, plain and simple

  14. #14
    SpyderLovers Sponsor Roadster Renovations's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofdave View Post
    interesting about "water tight"
    I posted a link in the F3 pulley thread with info on that
    water is not causing the rust, it is the interaction (movement) between the shaft and the pulley. You'll get the iron oxide on the pulley even if it's never been wet.
    I believe the pulley alloy could be made harder to minimize the iron oxide occurring.
    And you're right, a new bolt is a must. The bolt stretches (as it should) and reusing is not advisable.
    My thinking is that if there is a way for moisture to enter (even the humidity in the air) that will help the wearing metal (which once it starts wearing will be negatively effected) to stop having the moisture factor. Even the dissimilar metals (the shaft and sprocket) will heat up and cool down differently. This will cause minute gaps allowing water or humidity in. The RTV is slightly flexible, and should maintain it's seal. When the cage industry first started using aluminum heads with cast iron blocks decades ago, they had to figure out how to correctly gasket that to keep from blowing head gaskets. On the Dodge Neon alone they developed a 5 step process to torque the head down. If anyone is in doubt, as your wife about the heating up/cooling down properties between a cast iron and aluminum skillet.
    And, that red dust? That is the material being removed from the pulley. Sealing the area would stop that from coming out which should reduce the gap and also the fretting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadster Renovations View Post
    My thinking is that if there is a way for moisture to enter (even the humidity in the air) that will help the wearing metal (which once it starts wearing will be negatively effected) to stop having the moisture factor. Even the dissimilar metals (the shaft and sprocket) will heat up and cool down differently. This will cause minute gaps allowing water or humidity in. The RTV is slightly flexible, and should maintain it's seal. When the cage industry first started using aluminum heads with cast iron blocks decades ago, they had to figure out how to correctly gasket that to keep from blowing head gaskets. On the Dodge Neon alone they developed a 5 step process to torque the head down. If anyone is in doubt, as your wife about the heating up/cooling down properties between a cast iron and aluminum skillet.
    And, that red dust? That is the material being removed from the pulley. Sealing the area would stop that from coming out which should reduce the gap and also the fretting.
    and if the red dust can't get out, maybe it will build up and make a tighter fit between the pulley and shaft and reduce the movement which caused it in the first place.
    Self healing?
    2017 F3, SM6-basic black, plain and simple

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    Here's an idea that may work, or may just be too crazy to work, I don't know. Spray a thin lube like WD40 on the shaft and coat the pulley splines with JB Weld. My thinking is the JB Weld would fill the gap tightly, be hard enough to withstand the pressure between the splines, and prevent relative movement between the pulley and shaft. The lube on the shaft would be to prevent the epoxy from adhering to the shaft so the pulley could be pulled off, if that was ever necessary.

    Obviously the spline wear is caused by relative movement between the shaft and pulley and that is virtually impossible to prevent with parallel mating splines without an interference press fit.
    Last edited by IdahoMtnSpyder; 11-14-2017 at 04:34 PM.

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  17. #17
    Very Active Member AbNormy's Avatar
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    Default dealers missed opportunities

    so I've had this to several dealers since I've bought it in 2012, none mentioned this and this is the first I've heard of it happening on twins...here's to attentive service departments all over the southern US...glad I thought to post a pic her on SL and get y'alls learned responses...
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  18. #18
    SpyderLovers Sponsor Roadster Renovations's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofdave View Post
    and if the red dust can't get out, maybe it will build up and make a tighter fit between the pulley and shaft and reduce the movement which caused it in the first place.
    Self healing?
    If it can't go anywhere, it would have to hold up longer. Anyway, that's my thinking.

  19. #19
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default JB WELD

    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    Here's an idea that may work, or may just be too crazy to work, I don't know. Spray a thin lube like WD40 on the shaft and coat the pulley splines with JB Weld. My thinking is the JB Weld would fill the gap tightly, be hard enough to withstand the pressure between the splines, and prevent relative movement between the pulley and shaft. The lube on the shaft would be to prevent the epoxy from adhering to the shaft so the pulley could be pulled off, if that was ever necessary.

    Obviously the spline wear is caused by relative movement between the shaft and pulley and that is virtually impossible to prevent with parallel mating splines without an interference press fit.
    I loooooooooooooooooove folks who can think out-of-the -box ............ Mike

  20. #20
    SpyderLovers Sponsor Roadster Renovations's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    Here's an idea that may work, or may just be too crazy to work, I don't know. Spray a thin lube like WD40 on the shaft and coat the pulley splines with JB Weld. My thinking is the JB Weld would fill the gap tightly, be hard enough to withstand the pressure between the splines, and prevent relative movement between the pulley and shaft. The lube on the shaft would be to prevent the epoxy from adhering to the shaft so the pulley could be pulled off, if that was ever necessary.

    Obviously the spline wear is caused by relative movement between the shaft and pulley and that is virtually impossible to prevent with parallel mating splines without an interference press fit.
    That might work. It would depend on the expansion and contraction of the dissimilar metals. JB weld sets up hard and has no flexibility. That is why I suggested RTV. In fact, I plan on using a non-corrosive RTV such as the one here. There are more expensive ones, but this is more economical and should do the job. I use it on many auto repairs.
    http://www.criticaltool.com/permatex...hoChjkQAvD_BwE

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