F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[zuni]

I'm wondering if there are any common denominators Like-
SE6 vs sm6?
Hot Weather State VS Cooler weather?
Heavier Person, 2 Up or Pulling trailer Vs Single Lighter rider?

In CT I'm rarely more than 50 miles from home and AMA pays 35 miles flatbed anywhere you want. Many aren't So Fortunate.

I think Heat and Belt tension must play some role?

170lbs, single rider, no trailer, SE6. I still don't think we have hit upon a cause. If it was belt tension I would expect to see a lot more and most would be running factory spec. If it was heat related, SO Cal, TX, AZ, FL, NM would have the majority but they are scattered around the country. Every time I think I may have an idea I realize we would be seeing more with it covering two model years so far. Haven't heard about any 2017's yet.

CJ JAX

[SPYD3R]

170lbs, single rider, no trailer, SE6. I still don't think we have hit upon a cause. If it was belt tension I would expect to see a lot more and most would be running factory spec. If it was heat related, SO Cal, TX, AZ, FL, NM would have the majority but they are scattered around the country. Every time I think I may have an idea I realize we would be seeing more with it covering two model years so far. Haven't heard about any 2017's yet.

CJ JAX

problem is 1 of 2 things....
1. wrong heat treating process (or none at all)...
2. material properties are not correct for the application...
i was an engineer for years, and i figure the engineering department at BRP didn't do their failure analysis.... gears such as that on the F3, should be 'boiler plate'... BRP truly fell off the cliff on this one...
Dan P
SPYD3R

[Roadster Renovations]

problem is 1 of 2 things....
1. wrong heat treating process (or none at all)...
2. material properties are not correct for the application...
i was an engineer for years, and i figure the engineering department at BRP didn't do their failure analysis.... gears such as that on the F3, should be 'boiler plate'... BRP truly fell off the cliff on this one...
Dan P
SPYD3R

I wonder if it could be a inconsistency in the tolerances. Which would boil down to quality control. That would explain the hit and miss problem that is happening. For those that have had multiple failures, maybe the shaft is the culprit. We have seen BRP low ball bids on products for our bykes. Look at the Kendras.....

[jcthorne]

170lbs, single rider, no trailer, SE6. I still don't think we have hit upon a cause. If it was belt tension I would expect to see a lot more and most would be running factory spec. If it was heat related, SO Cal, TX, AZ, FL, NM would have the majority but they are scattered around the country. Every time I think I may have an idea I realize we would be seeing more with it covering two model years so far. Haven't heard about any 2017's yet.

CJ JAX

2017s are having the same problem. Just not as many....yet...as they are lower in miles as a group. But there have been failures of 17s as well. They also have the same sprocket, belt etc.

[JKMSPYDER]

From what I am hearing from other F3 owners it seems to happen between 15,000 and 25,000 miles although it can happen at any mileage. This looks like an epidemic on F3’s.

[JayBros]

This is easy Monday morning quarterbacking but it seems to me that if this is a "known issue" one would think BRP would have their act together but I guess they don't want to pay dealers for checking F3s that may be fine. It would seem to me that a three step process, like belt tension check and adjust to lower spec if necessary, followed by bolt removal and sprocket inspection, followed by sprocket replacement if necessary, and lastly Loctite application and correct torque of the bolt. They don't have to call it a recall; the marketeers and lawyers can come up with a BS term that would lend much credibility to a "warranty inspection effort." Toyota did one for some minor issue that occurred on my wife's 2016 Highlander. Even though BRP is a small company in the grand scheme of the motorcycle industry and must watch costs, it appears that they learned absolutely nothing from the 2013 RT fire bomb issue.

[Road-Kill]

I'm reading this thread like there is a "massive" problem with the front sprocket.
The same scenario played out with the epidemic "idler" failure......which ended up being complete bullsh*t.
Over 100,000 Spyders have been sold and I'm only reading a few with sprocket issues making it less then a 1% issue.
1% is NOT an massive issue, actually less then 1%.
Tens of thousands registered on this site and I see two or three with an issue so GET A GRIP PEOPLE.

If you are going to state there is a epidemic sprocket issue please cite your sources!

You will not because you can not because its bullsh*t......and I'm calling you on out on it.

[JKMSPYDER]

​Since you have an F3 I hope your sprocket doesn’t fail. If it does you may consider it an epidemic. Have you checked yours lately?

[Sarge707]

Think of the thousands of F3 owners that Don't view the site and Know nothing of reducing the tension to 300 Neutons Plus or minus 100. There could have been a letter to each owner telling them to bring it to the dealer for lowering? Many of us do not bring it to the dealer for service and Many dealers are to busy to read bullitens or Don' care.

[zuni]

I'm reading this thread like there is a "massive" problem with the front sprocket.
The same scenario played out with the epidemic "idler" failure......which ended up being complete bullsh*t.
Over 100,000 Spyders have been sold and I'm only reading a few with sprocket issues making it less then a 1% issue.
1% is NOT an massive issue, actually less then 1%.
Tens of thousands registered on this site and I see two or three with an issue so GET A GRIP PEOPLE.

If you are going to state there is a epidemic sprocket issue please cite your sources!

You will not because you can not because its bullsh*t......and I'm calling you on out on it.

Got to love your use of numbers. I never did and I don't recall anyone else saying this was a massive issue. Your "over 100,000 sold Spyders.....less then 1%" isn't really accurate since we are talking F3 series only (although there has been one RT). As for the "2 or 3" with an issue that is another generalization. I think I made the first post about this issue in August of last year and since then I have direct knowledge of over two dozen who were kind enough to contact me in response to my request of information. That is just from SL and now it is starting to circulate on FB. Lamont just had to have his replaced while at the Spyder in the Hills event. BRP and my dealer has been good to me with both failures and limited my downtime to no more than a week. Others have not been so lucky. Massive issue maybe not but since I love my F3 and would like to keep it for a while it would be nice to know why it keeps eating sprockets.

CJ JAX

[Road-Kill]

Got to love your use of numbers. I never did and I don't recall anyone else saying this was a massive issue. Your "over 100,000 sold Spyders.....less then 1%" isn't really accurate since we are talking F3 series only (although there has been one RT). As for the "2 or 3" with an issue that is another generalization. I think I made the first post about this issue in August of last year and since then I have direct knowledge of over two dozen who were kind enough to contact me in response to my request of information. That is just from SL and now it is starting to circulate on FB. Lamont just had to have his replaced while at the Spyder in the Hills event. BRP and my dealer has been good to me with both failures and limited my downtime to no more than a week. Others have not been so lucky. Massive issue maybe not but since I love my F3 and would like to keep it for a while it would be nice to know why it keeps eating sprockets.

CJ JAX

My generization is because there is no hard math present in this thread other then.....generalizations.
As you just stated its more then the F3 and apparently according to you one RT......no citations provided.
As you also stated people are working on their own machines.
If they are working on there own machines how does anyone know they even know what they are looking at?
Remember.....people thought their BRP idler was failing because it was "wobbly" yet they are very well made and rugged.
What are they doing to their machines?
Are they playing with belt tension?
Are they trained or at least knowledgeable in BRP Spyder specs/mechanics?
Are they riding two up?
Are they morbidly obese and exceeding the weight rating? I've seen some really fat Sumo Wresters on Spyders.
Are they pulling a trailer and what is that weight? I've seen two large riders on a Spyder while pulling a trailer.

The ONLY people that know what's going on are the BRP mechanics and BRP Inc.
I'm staying with my original statement..........CITATIONS PLEASE.

[zuni]

My generization is because there is no hard math present in this thread other then.....generalizations.
As you just stated its more then the F3 and apparently according to you one RT......no citations provided.
As you also stated people are working on their own machines.
If they are working on there own machines how does anyone know they even know what they are looking at?
Remember.....people thought their BRP idler was failing because it was "wobbly" yet they are very well made and rugged.
What are they doing to their machines?
Are they playing with belt tension?
Are they trained or at least knowledgeable in BRP Spyder specs/mechanics?
Are they riding two up?
Are they morbidly obese and exceeding the weight rating? I've seen some really fat Sumo Wresters on Spyders.
Are they pulling a trailer and what is that weight? I've seen two large riders on a Spyder while pulling a trailer.

The ONLY people that know what's going on are the BRP mechanics and BRP Inc.
I'm staying with my original statement..........CITATIONS PLEASE.

No problem. I'm sure it is all fake news. I won't be naming people or technicians that gave me information. It was given in confidence and someone else with the issue has a beef with BRP so what i was given won't be made public by me. Wobbly idler is now fake news as well? Guess you missed the photos of the melted rollers and damaged belts. Or Lamont's comment that he has decided to remove them from their bikes in part because of potential issues and no real need for the part. Have no issue with you, believe what you want. Nothing to prove to you.

CJ JAX

[Roadster Renovations]

No problem. I'm sure it is all fake news. I won't be naming people or technicians that gave me information. It was given in confidence and someone else with the issue has a beef with BRP so what i was given won't be made public by me. Wobbly idler is now fake news as well? Guess you missed the photos of the melted rollers and damaged belts. Or Lamont's comment that he has decided to remove them from their bikes in part because of potential issues and no real need for the part. Have no issue with you, believe what you want. Nothing to prove to you.

CJ JAX

Can't fix stupid, Zuni. I stopped trying.

[Sarge707]

Can't fix stupid, Zuni. I stopped trying.

So I was about to buy the BRP Idler Thingy Because at 100 Pounds the belt Vibrates a Lot More than 140 Pounds- Advice to buy OR Not?

[JKMSPYDER]

OK Road-Kill, I had stated earlier that I thought the front sprocket problem was an epidemic problem on F3’s. And you flamed me pretty good. Then I found a sample that might back me up. There are 40 Spyder riders in our tri-State group that meet for lunch once a month. Of those 40 riders, 13 of us own F3’s from model years ‘15 thru ‘17. So far 5 of us have had the front sprocket crater or have discovered the problem before disaster. Five out of 13 is 38%. So based on that sample I think we do have an epidemic!

[Roadster Renovations]

So I was about to buy the BRP Idler Thingy Because at 100 Pounds the belt Vibrates a Lot More than 140 Pounds- Advice to buy OR Not?

To give my personal perspective, at the Tenn. Rally earlier this year, we installed about a dozen or so of our dampers. Of those, 3 had a very loose bearing (beyond out of package) and 2 of the BRP kits the arm had frozen.
Then, earlier this month at Maggie Valley I found one that had failed with roller completely gone and it had gouged and ruined the belt. Two others were also bad; one only had 400 miles on it and the other had 4,000 miles and was just getting ready to come off it had so much play. I did a live Facebook on it from Maggie it was so bad.
So, it looks like it is a hit and miss. Some seem to last. Others don't. I will tell you this. If you plan on buying one and installing it yourself, and it does go bad, they will not warranty the belt. You will be out of pocket. We are coming up on 1 year now since starting to offer our Dampers and have yet to have a bearing failure. I did pull a roller out of service in Maggie because I didn't like the weird wear pattern on the surface, but the bearings were still fine.
I said all that to answer your question from my perspective. I would like to keep this subject on topic, but it is beginning to look like a lowered tension with our Vibration Damper is going to be the way to go on this front sprocket problem.

[Road-Kill]

OK Road-Kill, I had stated earlier that I thought the front sprocket problem was an epidemic problem on F3’s. And you flamed me pretty good. Then I found a sample that might back me up. There are 40 Spyder riders in our tri-State group that meet for lunch once a month. Of those 40 riders, 13 of us own F3’s from model years ‘15 thru ‘17. So far 5 of us have had the front sprocket crater or have discovered the problem before disaster. Five out of 13 is 38%. So based on that sample I think we do have an epidemic!

What you stated is math. All I asked for was math. Thank you.
At my next service I'll ask them to check the front sprocket......again thank you.

[stebrock]

Think of the thousands of F3 owners that Don't view the site and Know nothing of reducing the tension to 300 Neutons Plus or minus 100. There could have been a letter to each owner telling them to bring it to the dealer for lowering? Many of us do not bring it to the dealer for service and Many dealers are to busy to read bullitens or Don' care.

So for my own knowledge:
1. Is the 300 Neutons now the official BRP spec?
2. What device is used to measure this? (does spec vary based on device type?)
3. Is the spec measured with wheel on the ground?

300 Neutons = 67 lbf correct?

I actually want to be informed when I question my dealer on belt tension @ 3000 miles initial oil change.

Thanks for the info, Rick

[Roadster Renovations]

I found an interesting bit of info from a BRP tech about this. Evidently, ALL the SE5 & 6's in all models have had this issue occur. He said he has never replaced a front sprocket on a manual. This got me to wondering if the clunk we all love to hate when we first go into gear is causing spline wear/breaking the tension on the bolt?
If that was the case, it would make sense to have less tension on the belt to absorb some of that shock.

[bandreassen]

Well, my bike is now at the shop (I have a 2016 F3S). Since I have had several friends with sprocket issues, I sort of knew what to look for. My bike has just under 20,000 miles, and I had a rattling sound, with vibration. I also had a lot of rust colored dust on the sprocket upon inspection. That is 7 F3's that I know of in the NC/SC area that have had the failure. I was lucky, as I got to the dealer before it was complete toast. Most people aren't that lucky, and it fails on the road somewhere. Most of the bikes that I know of that have been affected are 2015's, but mine and one other is a 2016.

Just for statistic sake, I'm a small person, don't hot rod the bike, pull a trailer or ride 2 up.

BRP needs to fix this for several reasons. I cannot honestly say as a current owner that the bike is trouble free. So if a prospective buyer asks me, I am going to tell them about this. That is a lot of bad publicity, that no company needs. BRP is a huge company, and has the $$ to make this right.

It is not the right thing to do for them to allow this part to fail, stranding people. Once the part fails, the bike is dead in the water.

[Sarge707]

I found an interesting bit of info from a BRP tech about this. Evidently, ALL the SE5 & 6's in all models have had this issue occur. He said he has never replaced a front sprocket on a manual. This got me to wondering if the clunk we all love to hate when we first go into gear is causing spline wear/breaking the tension on the bolt?
If that was the case, it would make sense to have less tension on the belt to absorb some of that shock.

Are they ALL SE6's??? Mine is sm6 and had none of the red dust buildup BUT it only has 9,500 miles. My tension has gone from 160 Stock to 140 and recently to 100 when I read this thread. My vibration was minimal at 160 and 140- It was MUCH more pronounced at 100- In Fact I swear I could Twist the belt 360 degrees instead of the Ole 180 degree check!!!

Today I raised it to 120 and did a good test run (Listening carefully) and the sm6 shifts were very smooth with No clunking. I'm Going to leave it at 120 Even though its still high. At 100 you could raise the back end and peel the belt right off without loosening anything just by rotating the tire.
I feel 120 is fine for me because I won't use a tensioner of any brand because its just something more to go wrong or think about and when I ride I just want to drift off in my musical world.

[stebrock]

Are they ALL SE6's??? Mine is sm6 and had none of the red dust buildup BUT it only has 9,500 miles. My tension has gone from 160 Stock to 140 and recently to 100 when I read this thread. My vibration was minimal at 160 and 140- It was MUCH more pronounced at 100- In Fact I swear I could Twist the belt 360 degrees instead of the Ole 180 degree check!!!

Today I raised it to 120 and did a good test run (Listening carefully) and the sm6 shifts were very smooth with No clunking. I'm Going to leave it at 120 Even though its still high. At 100 you could raise the back end and peel the belt right off without loosening anything just by rotating the tire.
I feel 120 is fine for me because I won't use a tensioner of any brand because its just something more to go wrong or think about and when I ride I just want to drift off in my musical world.

So the spec of 300 newtons = 67 lbs. When you talk about 120 I assume you are talking lbs?

Thanks, Rick

[cmarsala]

What you stated is math. All I asked for was math. Thank you.
At my next service I'll ask them to check the front sprocket......again thank you.

I follow about 4 or 5 different Spyder forums and several Spyder facebook pages and I'm amazed at the number of folks that are having this issue, even Lamonster has had the problem with sprokets. I sent out a request on several facebook pages concerning the problem, I've had about 60 reply's with sprocket failure, 11 of them on their second one. I fired off an email to BRP addressing the problem and the number of people I've heard from, no response from BRP yet, I'll post it when I do.
So is this an epidemic? I think not, but it is an issue that BRP needs to address before someone is hurt or involved in an accident because their bike won't move in traffic. 1, 2 or even 10 failures with the number of Spyders sold is understandable, but 60 or more isn't, my guess is that the sprocket is made with to soft of a metal because the transmission main shaft is fine on the one's that failed, no one has had an issue with the main shaft that I got a reply from.
I'll wait to see what BRP come's up with. I know on my F3 I'll be replacing the bolt with a better grade and also drilling it and the sprocket for safety wire along with red loctite.
Ya'll Ride Safe!

[Sarge707]

So the spec of 300 newtons = 67 lbs. When you talk about 120 I assume you are talking lbs?

Thanks, Rick

Yes Krickit Pounds- At 100 Pounds it was Very Loose to me- Can't imagine 69 Pounds? I have been doing this Kricket Stuff for 65,000 miles on 3 different Spyders and I will not go less than 120 Pounds on the Kricket?

I WISH Lamont would give his opinion of the acceptable Kricket Pounds he and his friends Use?

[Roadster Renovations]

I was on Cheap Cycle Parts and was front checking sprockets and found that they did supersede the number on the '14 RTS. The old part number was 7055011986. The new part number 705502134, which is the same number for the '17's. The bolt numbers are different though, so I figure to get one for the F3.