F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[GaryTheBadger]

Thank you, Roadster Renovations.

[Roadster Renovations]

Still haven't forgot the video. Automotive has been extremely busy. Will do sometime next week. One in the shop and 2 waiting outside....all major work.

[JKMSPYDER]

​My dealer seems to be having a delay in acquiring Loctite 660 to go with replacing my shaft and bolt. I have shopped four automotive stores and can't find it either. But all of these stores carry a lot of Permatex products. So I got the idea of Googling a Loctite 660 equivalent. It immediately came up with Permatex Sleeve Retainer # 64040. Has anyone used this product and will it accomplish the same result as Loctite 660? In reading the product information for the Permatex it looks like it will.

[Roadster Renovations]

​My dealer seems to be having a delay in acquiring Loctite 660 to go with replacing my shaft and bolt. I have shopped four automotive stores and can't find it either. But all of these stores carry a lot of Permatex products. So I got the idea of Googling a Loctite 660 equivalent. It immediately came up with Permatex Sleeve Retainer # 64040. Has anyone used this product and will it accomplish the same result as Loctite 660? In reading the product information for the Permatex it looks like it will.

5-7 day shipping straight to your dealer if that helps.
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Quick...ds=loctite+660

[Roadster Renovations]

This one is by Sunday;
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-442-6...ds=loctite+660

[JKMSPYDER]

My question was if the Permatex product that I mentioned would work?

[Roadster Renovations]

My question was if the Permatex product that I mentioned would work?

No idea either....anybody???

[Freddy]

I wouldn't do anything more. Tightening the bolt any will break the loctite seal and render the thread locker useless. <snip

BRP does not agree, or they didn't 6 years ago when these failures first showed up.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...rvice+bulletin

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...t-BRP-Bulletin


As I said earlier, I torqued mine to 115 ftlb. The SB said to mark the head of the bolt with a black X to show it had been loosened and retorqued. I wonder to Doc still has that SB somewhere?

[Roadster Renovations]

BRP does not agree, or they didn't 6 years ago when these failures first showed up.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...rvice+bulletin

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...t-BRP-Bulletin


As I said earlier, I torqued mine to 115 ftlb. The SB said to mark the head of the bolt with a black X to show it had been loosened and retorqued. I wonder to Doc still has that SB somewhere?

No SB on it. Sorry. I'm just going by taking critical bolts loose on cages. Anytime the loctite is broken loose, it has to be re-applied.

[jcthorne]

Saw my first RT with the problem in my shop on Sat. Bike had 58,000 miles and the pulley covered in the red iron oxide. Recommended the owner have the dealer replace the pulley. (its under warranty).

[zuni]

Saw my first RT with the problem in my shop on Sat. Bike had 58,000 miles and the pulley covered in the red iron oxide. Recommended the owner have the dealer replace the pulley. (its under warranty).

58K interval I could live with. Every 8K not so much. Going well since the last change but only 2.5K so far.

CJ JAX

[Road-Kill]

Just arrived home from my dealer after having the front sprocket replaced. No cost to me other then the time spent traveling the 40 miles in the cold to get there. He told me the new sprocket is an upgrade from BRP but doesn't know how as they "look" the same. He also told me my original sprocket was not even close to failure even though it was covered in red rust. Regardless, I'm off to complete my first 20,000 miles on this bike this year. This thread did (finally) cause me to check my bike for that evil red rust so my hat off to those who argued with me on what I considered a non-issue at the time.

P.S. Don't think for a second I will not call BS in the future, I was wrong this time.....

[OK-DZ9R]

Kevin Cameron's Top Dead Center column in this month's Cycle World Magazine speaks directly to the cause and source of the dreaded Red Dust:

https://www.cycleworld.com/long-and-...ycle-fasteners

"(The)loss of metal from the slight relative movements between fastener and part caused by vibration. A good example of this is the loosening of the large, thin nuts often used to retain engine output sprockets on their shaft splines or of the several bolts used to retain rear wheel sprockets.Despite the usual presence of a torsional shock absorber, built into the clutch basket, the drive from engine to rear wheel is not smooth. All the tiny motions that result cause surface scrubbing, each such movement making a zillion micro-welds that are broken by the next movement. In steel-to-steel contacts of this kind you may find a reddish discoloration or even red powder—the iron oxide that results from “frettage,” the slight vibratory weld-and-break action between surfaces."

[Roadster Renovations]

Kevin Cameron's Top Dead Center column in this month's Cycle World Magazine speaks directly to the cause and source of the dreaded Red Dust:

https://www.cycleworld.com/long-and-...ycle-fasteners

"(The)loss of metal from the slight relative movements between fastener and part caused by vibration. A good example of this is the loosening of the large, thin nuts often used to retain engine output sprockets on their shaft splines or of the several bolts used to retain rear wheel sprockets.Despite the usual presence of a torsional shock absorber, built into the clutch basket, the drive from engine to rear wheel is not smooth. All the tiny motions that result cause surface scrubbing, each such movement making a zillion micro-welds that are broken by the next movement. In steel-to-steel contacts of this kind you may find a reddish discoloration or even red powder—the iron oxide that results from “frettage,” the slight vibratory weld-and-break action between surfaces."

Good article. Thanks for sharing!

[Freddy]

Someone send it to BRP Care please. NO, wait - they don't care.

[Peteoz]

This thread did (finally) cause me to check my bike for that evil red rust so my hat off to those who argued with me on what I considered a non-issue at the time.
P.S. Don't think for a second I will not call BS in the future, I was wrong this time.....

It takes a lot of guts to admit you were wrong on a public forum, Road-Kill......and you weren’t really THAT wrong with what you were saying....... and I don’t think ANYONE would expect you not to call BS when you see (read it)

Pete

[Roadster Renovations]

Now that we have determined fretting is the cause, I would like to hear thoughts about the clunk of going into gear and whether that may be the long term cause of this. Going into gear at the point of the splines would be equivalent to a pretty good tap with a hammer. I have been playing around with trying to lessen that impact by taking the parking brake off and just barely pressing on the brake pedal just enough to turn on the brake light but not apply the brake. It will then allow me to shift. When that happens, the byke will jump 1-2". I'm thinking that would lessen the impact from a frozen (parking brake on) position. Also, it seems that the shift from either R to 1 or 1 to R is usually very much softer. So, if the fretting is occurring from mostly going into first, would it not make sense to go into reverse first to lessen the fretting from going into first?

[Freddy]

My take on the above explanation of fretting is that it's not so much the clunk you describe RR, but the power pulses from the engine itself causing the damage due to 'inadequate clamping force' of the pulley retaining bolt as BRP advised 6-8 years ago. As I've mentioned earlier in this most interesting, if not distressing topic, I torqued the bolt on my 990 higher than BPR's revised spec after determining what a new bolt of that type could be torqued to, then added a bit more due to the factory-fitted thread locker. We've already had a few reports of the bolt tightening up when folks have retorqued it. In the service bulleting I referred to earlier (which seems to be unavailable to view these days) BRP instructions were to loosen the bolt then retorque it.

I don't have a 1330 bolt at hand but maybe someone can measure the bolt diameter and thread pitch and tell us what markings are on its head.


...........and another thing. Why did BRP fit a 'flywheel' to the 990 drive pulley after the spline failures were detected? Was it to behave as something like a vibration damper? I note that the 1330 does not have this. Very curious.

[Roadster Renovations]

My take on the above explanation of fretting is that it's not so much the clunk you describe RR, but the power pulses from the engine itself causing the damage due to 'inadequate clamping force' of the pulley retaining bolt as BRP advised 6-8 years ago. As I've mentioned earlier in this most interesting, if not distressing topic, I torqued the bolt on my 990 higher than BPR's revised spec after determining what a new bolt of that type could be torqued to, then added a bit more due to the factory-fitted thread locker. We've already had a few reports of the bolt tightening up when folks have retorqued it. In the service bulleting I referred to earlier (which seems to be unavailable to view these days) BRP instructions were to loosen the bolt then retorque it.

I don't have a 1330 bolt at hand but maybe someone can measure the bolt diameter and thread pitch and tell us what markings are on its head.


...........and another thing. Why did BRP fit a 'flywheel' to the 990 drive pulley after the spline failures were detected? Was it to behave as something like a vibration damper? I note that the 1330 does not have this. Very curious.

All good points, Freddy! I also wondered about the "Output Shaft Vibration Damper" myself.

i have been reading up on this page and it looks like corrosion and fretting go hand in hand in some cases. Oxygen presence converts the sheared material "chewing up" the remaining surface. i am still hanging with the RTV seal and spline covering.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...w=1600&bih=769

[Freddy]

There is certainly a broad body of knowledge and experience on the subject. I have personal experience of it with diesel engine main & big-end bearing caps and have seen catastrophic engine failures where owners/amateurs have not recognised it and reassembled engines with new bearings only to have bearing/shaft seizure not too far down the road. But that's Off Topic and another sad story.

[ofdave]

Have been interested in this since the beginning. When I found that fretting resulted in the iron oxide production I posted the Wikipedia link to it in an earlier post thinking it would spark thinking on the subject which it has.

Our Spyders are not the only machines with belt drive pulleys on an output shaft. Nearly all motorcycle manufacturers have a model with belt drive from BMW to Honda to Harley to Yamaha and more.
I am curious if those others have the same issue? We can't be alone in this, can we?

I understand the concern over bolt tightness. It seems to me the bolt holds the pulley on the shaft to prevent lateral movement while the splines prevent or minimize rotational movement. From what I've read, I think the rotational movement of the pulley on the shaft is the main cause of the problem although I can see where any lateral movement of the pulley on the shaft would exacerbate the problem but not be the actual cause.

I agree with Freddy, putting the bike into gear is not a cause of the problem, it is the minute movement of the pulley on the splines that gives us the problem.

I wonder if belt vibration could be a contributing factor to this movement of the pulley? Are the pulley failures equal among bikes with and without belt tensioners? Food for thought

It is interesting to hear what solutions have been discussed-lube on the shaft to reduce friction in the minute movement of the pulley on the shaft and RTV to keep out moisture and maybe a cushioning effect. I hope there will be future posts on the success of each method.

The one issue that has not been talked about is the material the pulley is made from. Would a different harder alloy reduce the fretting? A problem I see in making the pulley too hard would be transferring wear to the output shaft. That would not be good as shaft replacement would be much more expensive than replacing the pulley.
A comment was made above that someone installed a new pulley and was told by his dealer that although it had the same part number it was different. Could it be that BRP changed the make-up of the pulley to harder material to reduce the problem? Would be interesting to know the answer.
Anyway, the saga continues.

[Roadster Renovations]

Have been interested in this since the beginning. When I found that fretting resulted in the iron oxide production I posted the Wikipedia link to it in an earlier post thinking it would spark thinking on the subject which it has.

Our Spyders are not the only machines with belt drive pulleys on an output shaft. Nearly all motorcycle manufacturers have a model with belt drive from BMW to Honda to Harley to Yamaha and more.
I am curious if those others have the same issue? We can't be alone in this, can we?

I understand the concern over bolt tightness. It seems to me the bolt holds the pulley on the shaft to prevent lateral movement while the splines prevent or minimize rotational movement. From what I've read, I think the rotational movement of the pulley on the shaft is the main cause of the problem although I can see where any lateral movement of the pulley on the shaft would exacerbate the problem but not be the actual cause.

I agree with Freddy, putting the bike into gear is not a cause of the problem, it is the minute movement of the pulley on the splines that gives us the problem.

I wonder if belt vibration could be a contributing factor to this movement of the pulley? Are the pulley failures equal among bikes with and without belt tensioners? Food for thought

It is interesting to hear what solutions have been discussed-lube on the shaft to reduce friction in the minute movement of the pulley on the shaft and RTV to keep out moisture and maybe a cushioning effect. I hope there will be future posts on the success of each method.

The one issue that has not been talked about is the material the pulley is made from. Would a different harder alloy reduce the fretting? A problem I see in making the pulley too hard would be transferring wear to the output shaft. That would not be good as shaft replacement would be much more expensive than replacing the pulley.
A comment was made above that someone installed a new pulley and was told by his dealer that although it had the same part number it was different. Could it be that BRP changed the make-up of the pulley to harder material to reduce the problem? Would be interesting to know the answer.
Anyway, the saga continues.

I have had the original Vibration Damper on my F3 since this time last year at 3,000 miles. I now have close to 17,000 miles and plan on removing the front pulley and using the RTV on it. Interested to see what I will find when I remove it. Statistically, I don't think the dampers have been out there long enough to really make a difference, but if what you are saying about engine vibration causing this is correct, a Vibration Damper would have to help some. I have the VD on both the F3 and RT and where it greatly improved the RT, it really improved the F3 substantially. Will be doing a video when I get the byke in to do this and I'll post it in here. Probably the weekend. One thing I know for sure; BRP will not make the pulley splines harder due to the possibility of damage to the shaft they would be liable for.

[Roadster Renovations]

Today I removed for inspection, also to install the newest style bolt the front drive pulley from our 2014 RTS. Ours is an early machine, purchased in Jan of 2014.

I have posted the details and photos on Finless Bobs FB group. I no longer post here at Spyderlovers, this is a rare case to help others.

Upon disassembly, this machine, which has never been apart prior to today had the splines coated from the factory in what appears to be white lithium grease.

The pulley on this machine is fairly hard. I attempted to mark the pulley and shaft to index the location for reassembly. I was unable to scratch or scribe the pulley. I was able to barely put a file mark onto the surface. I resorted to other means of marking.

Upon inspection, there was no wear to the pulley splines or gearbox shaft.

There was no indication of fretting, red oxide dust or similar. The bolt had not loosened from my previously applied witness mark. The bolt had never been removed until today, and the informal torque verification accomplished the day the witness mark was applied showed it had not loosened.

All the best, however or whatever method you proceed with.

What was the mileage on the machine.........if you don't mind?

[JKMSPYDER]

I finally had my sprocket replaced the correct way yesterday by a dealer in Greenville, SC. My previous dealer had put the new sprocket on the wrong way and also did not use the Loctite 660. The dealer in Greenville had to heat the sprocket to 400 degrees to get the adhesive to loosen. Then he put on a new sprocket and bolt and used the Loctite 660. All this was done under warranty. My thanks to Ethan the service manager at Greenville Power Sports for getting this corrected for me. Today I mailed a letter to the previous dealer with photos to explain my displeasure with their work.

[Roadster Renovations]

I finally had my sprocket replaced the correct way yesterday by a dealer in Greenville, SC. My previous dealer had put the new sprocket on the wrong way and also did not use the Loctite 660. The dealer in Greenville had to heat the sprocket to 400 degrees to get the adhesive to loosen. Then he put on a new sprocket and bolt and used the Loctite 660. All this was done under warranty. My thanks to Ethan the service manager at Greenville Power Sports for getting this corrected for me. Today I mailed a letter to the previous dealer with photos to explain my displeasure with their work.

I would make sure you send the first dealers' name to BRP (if you haven't done so already)