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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacklightning View Post
    I hope you are correct. As for me, I think anything less than the 998 V-twin would be too weak. That engine was very nice in my 2012 RSS, and i would buy another in a minute. It had great power, but I wouldn't want any less.

    I'd have to agree with this. Any less power than the old 998 would be a non starter for a lot of people I think. I've ridden both the 600 and 900 ACE motors in the sleds....OMG, they can barely push a snowmobile down the trail and the sleds weigh less than a Spyder. They are way too utilitarian in there power delivery (think lawn mower). I wouldn't even consider them in a Spyder unless they had some reworking. I'm not saying they need to use the 998, they can use a 250 if they want. I just think whatever power plant they use has to make close to 100 HP and delivery it properly to be a satisfactory power plant for a bike that would weigh 550-800lbs.

    Taking a page from the Ski-Doo line. They make an MXz model that has 5 different engine choices and a variety of suspension choices. The entry level MXz TNT can be as little as $7000 (600 carb motor putting out 120hp, and older rear suspension with low budget shocks). The top of the line performance MXz X-RS runs about $15000 but you get a 850, computer controlled engine with 170hp, the best suspension on snow and the premium shocks as well as some electronic upgrades. They are both essentially the same chassis and sled, just configured differently. I don't know why they don't do the same thing with the Spyder? It is to some level now but not to the same extent as the sleds.

    I do believe they want/need an entry level Spyder. The Sea-Doo's, the sleds, the ATV's they all have a lower cost entry level option.

  2. #27
    Very Active Member Grandpot's Avatar
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    Entry level? No such thing.
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  3. #28
    Registered Users classicvw's Avatar
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    I too can't imagine a 600cc or thereabouts hauling a Spyder along with any conviction.

  4. #29
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    The folks who are saying that it can't be done are all looking at the issue from their personal narrow perspective.
    Pure beginners may be intimidated by:
    The cost
    The complexity
    The size

    These issues would need to be addressed, if BRP were looking to expand their market share...

    WE might be bored by a 600cc Trike... others may find it to be a way to get a toehold into an exciting new adventure!
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  5. #30
    Very Active Member Highwayman2013's Avatar
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    Right now the base F3 is it.
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  6. #31
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    Where's there a market for a new BRP entry level Spyder? If there was one, the older RS with its 998 is available on the used market for those looking to get into Spyder riding. BRP would have to match the performance and bring it at a price point somewhere around $6-$8k, to compete with used RS/GS's. Who would buy a 600cc $5K Spyder? Not young riders that I've talked to, they want sport bikes or hipster roadsters. Repeated polls here point to an older, more affluent crowd. My guess is they might want a more comfortable optioned model.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp125 View Post
    Where's there a market for a new BRP entry level Spyder? If there was one, the older RS with its 998 is available on the used market for those looking to get into Spyder riding. BRP would have to match the performance and bring it at a price point somewhere around $6-$8k, to compete with used RS/GS's. Who would buy a 600cc $5K Spyder? Not young riders that I've talked to, they want sport bikes or hipster roadsters. Repeated polls here point to an older, more affluent crowd. My guess is they might want a more comfortable optioned model.
    That doesn't help the dealer any. BRP wants to sell new bikes, not support the used bike market, and the dealer needs something to offer the less-well-heeled buyer to get them into Spyder'ing.
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  8. #33
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    I don't really know if there is a strong market for it or not. I think the issue with the RS not selling as an entry level bike was the $15K price. I think entry level to a lot of people is in the $8-10K range?

    Lots of people (myself included) don't like to buy used "stuff". They like new, with a warranty. An entry level Spyder might actually hurt used sales?

    I agree that everyone has their own ideas of what something should be but I think in general even an entry level rider expects a certain level of performance when it comes to power. I just don't think a 600 with 60hp is going to inspire anyone to drop $ on a Spyder unless the power to weight ratio allows for it to impress.

  9. #34
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    When I was looking to get into a Spyder, there were many that had little mileage on them. Some practically under 10,000 miles. We found ours at a local Can Am dealer with 14k miles, not brand new but new-ish enough and bought it for around $10k iirc, I spent another maybe $2k over the years upgrading it the way I like it. Right now, my local Craigslist has several RS/GS used models under $9K, a couple under $8K. So I don't know how stripped down BRP would have to make the entry model spyder - my '08 GS has no fancy chrome, no navigation, audio, heated grips.. it's already bare bones. An entry level Spyder would have to be what? Given the cost of R&D, tooling, and production, can BRP produce a new model and make any profit without outsourcing to places like China with cheap quality parts? Maybe they will let the markup on premium model sales subsidize the base models?
    Last edited by asp125; 09-19-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp125 View Post
    When I was looking to get into a Spyder, there were many that had little mileage on them. Some practically under 10,000 miles. We found ours at a local Can Am dealer with 14k miles, not brand new but new-ish enough and bought it for around $10k iirc, I spent another maybe $2k over the years upgrading it the way I like it. Right now, my local Craigslist has several RS/GS used models under $9K, a couple under $8K. So I don't know how stripped down BRP would have to make the entry model spyder - my '08 GS has no fancy chrome, no navigation, audio, heated grips.. it's already bare bones. An entry level Spyder would have to be what?
    That's the point of the post....... what is an "entry level" Spyder. If BRP came to you and said we want to build an entry level Spyder, what should it be? How would you answer the question?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    That's the point of the post....... what is an "entry level" Spyder. If BRP came to you and said we want to build an entry level Spyder, what should it be? How would you answer the question?
    Mine would be a re-release of the base RS, using as many off the shelf parts as possible to save production & tooling costs. I think even a certified pre-owned program will work. Porsche and Mercedes have in the past looked at CPO vehicles as the entry models, because building a totally new one won't come in at the targeted price point.
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  12. #37
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Some good discussion going on so far. The has a difficult market to crack. As said, most customers are currently over 50 and a bit more affluent than the average "newbie."

    Based on technology required--getting the entry level to a sub $10K level may be pretty difficult. Much over that (as in $15K base models) and you have blown your lead.

    Then there is the point where if you get to "no frills" you are going to have an issue with the comment--"you paid $10K--for THAT?"

    These days, $10K to $15K will buy a pretty nice motorcycle. I got a really nice one for $7K.

    A real dilemma for BRP. Going to have to watch this one. Not in the market for entry level any more.
    Last edited by ARtraveler; 09-20-2017 at 02:32 PM.

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  13. #38
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    Folks keep asking for the RS with the 998...
    That's NOT going to happen.
    They've got better entry level engines available; they just need to plug them into an acceptable platform.
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  14. #39
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    with the no 998. I do not see BRP going back to an engine that has now been discontinued. They will have to use new or current configurations that have already been tested and proven reliable. RE-start up for a discontinued engine is most likely not in the works.

    Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2020 F3 Limited: SOLD BOTH LIMITEDS in October of 2023.

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    MY FINAL TALLY: 7 Spyders, 15 years, 205,500 miles

    IT HAS BEEN A LONG, WONDERFUL, AND FUN RIDE.
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  15. #40
    Very Active Member JerryB's Avatar
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    Hi Alaska,

    Re: an engine that has now been discontinued.

    The 998 is built by Rotax, a company owned by BRP; it seems as it is only discontinued in Spyders.

    Rotax builds engines for many applications. They have been building engines for light-aircraft use for many years.

    Unless I missed the memo, the engine can still obtained.

    Jerry Baumchen

    PS) Isn't the 998 used in the Aprilla?
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    Folks keep asking for the RS with the 998...
    That's NOT going to happen.
    They've got better entry level engines available; they just need to plug them into an acceptable platform.

    I agree...I don't that would happen. I'm not in the market for an entry level Spyder either. I just wondered what people thought an entry level Spyder might be since the subject seems to keep popping up.

    I'm in the market for a non crusier riding position Spyder and I'd love it to have a more potent engine than the 998

  17. #42
    Registered Users classicvw's Avatar
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    Firstly, No manufacturer decides on producing a product lineup with any thought to their used market. Period. Only the motorcycle public does when choosing a Spyder to purchase.

    Secondly, recognizing the size and complexity of a Spyder as compared to anyone else's entry level offering, there's no way BRP is going to get in the $6K-$10K realm for a new Spyder. Where do you make the cuts? A smaller engine is about the only thing I can imagine. And how much smaller do you make it before the motorcycling press and public laugh at it's slowness in pushing a Spyder's weight around?
    It also doesn't save a manufacturer several thousand dollars to replace a 1330 with a 700. You still have to spend $$$$ on R&D, building a new assembly line, making the motor and necessary spare parts to support the model, etc.

    Say they ARE able to build a $10K stripped entry level Spyder? There's dozens if not hundreds right now out there with low miles that originally sold for $20K with 2,000 miles on them for $10K. Many buyers would opt to take a chance on a much more equipped used model than a stripped new one. I know some would prefer the new with warranty, but not all.
    Last edited by classicvw; 09-19-2017 at 02:37 PM.

  18. #43
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryB View Post
    Hi Alaska,

    Re: an engine that has now been discontinued.

    The 998 is built by Rotax, a company owned by BRP; it seems as it is only discontinued in Spyders.

    Rotax builds engines for many applications. They have been building engines for light-aircraft use for many years.

    Unless I missed the memo, the engine can still obtained.

    Jerry Baumchen

    PS) Isn't the 998 used in the Aprilla?
    Thanks for the update on the 998. That is good to know.

    Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2020 F3 Limited: SOLD BOTH LIMITEDS in October of 2023.

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium) 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow)

    MY FINAL TALLY: 7 Spyders, 15 years, 205,500 miles

    IT HAS BEEN A LONG, WONDERFUL, AND FUN RIDE.
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  19. #44
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    I keep hearing on this forum how "complex" a Spyder is and honestly I just don't get it. Is it any more complex than other bikes? The electronic control systems might be but what else is?

    My neighbor who I ride with quite a bit has BMW K1600 GT. It has a 6 cyclinder 145hp engine that has some serious pull and he gets about 40-45mpg The weight of his bike is about the same as my RS He has GPS, heated grips, ABS, traction control with settings for different weather (and the ability to turn it off) power adjustable windshield, power adjustable seat, touring bags standard, radio, power port and usb plug-ins, shaft drive, 6 speed...I mean the thing is great. How is the Spyder any more complex than his bike?

  20. #45
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    One of the complaints we hear a lot of is how hard to work on. Have you tried simple things like changing light bulbs, or putting in different spark plugs? Putting air in the rear tire is even a pain for a lot of us.

    Add in all the electronic glitches that can happen, and you have a mechanics nightmare--IMO anyway.

    If I did not have a competent dealer/mechanic--I would have been long gone.

    Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2020 F3 Limited: SOLD BOTH LIMITEDS in October of 2023.

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium) 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow)

    MY FINAL TALLY: 7 Spyders, 15 years, 205,500 miles

    IT HAS BEEN A LONG, WONDERFUL, AND FUN RIDE.
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  21. #46
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    Sure, I agree its a PITA to work on but that's BRP fault. Sleds used to be the same way. Now you can have a new sleds body work off and access to everything in about 3 minutes (seriously). I'm sure some other bikes are a PITA to work on and some are not. The electronics can go crazy but that's true of anything automotive nowadays and I'm sure true of other bikes.

    Is the Spyder complex....sure. More complex than other "automotive" type vehicles (cars, ATV, motorcycles, scooters, sled, etc).....I don't think so.

  22. #47
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    Sure, I agree its a PITA to work on but that's BRP fault. Sleds used to be the same way. Now you can have a new sleds body work off and access to everything in about 3 minutes (seriously). I'm sure some other bikes are a PITA to work on and some are not. The electronics can go crazy but that's true of anything automotive nowadays and I'm sure true of other bikes.

    Is the Spyder complex....sure. More complex than other "automotive" type vehicles (cars, ATV, motorcycles, scooters, sled, etc).....I don't think so.
    All of the new stuff is complex because of the electronics. I used to change the oil/filters and other small maintenance on all my cars and bikes. Not any more with any of the cars/bikes.

    Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2020 F3 Limited: SOLD BOTH LIMITEDS in October of 2023.

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium) 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow)

    MY FINAL TALLY: 7 Spyders, 15 years, 205,500 miles

    IT HAS BEEN A LONG, WONDERFUL, AND FUN RIDE.
    2020 F3L , Magma Red

  23. #48
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    The Rotax 998 is the same basic Aprilia motorcycle motor. If Aprilia can pump out 139 and 143Hp in their RSV Mille / WSBK motors, imagine putting that in an RS would really wake it up! As for working on it, it's no more hassle than removing fairings on a normal bike. Though replacing all the Torx fasteners with push clips or Dzus fasteners like two wheelers would make body removal a snap. But I digress...
    Last edited by asp125; 09-19-2017 at 04:11 PM.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp125 View Post
    The Rotax 998 is the same basic Aprilia motorcycle motor. If Aprilia can pump out 139 and 143Hp in their RSV Mille / WSBK motors, imagine putting that in an RS would really wake it up! But I digress...
    It would be awesome! BRP seems to have no interest in doing this though?? Not sure why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    It would be awesome! BRP seems to have no interest in doing this though?? Not sure why?
    Because #oldmansbike, they tried and failed marketing to the go faster crowd. They left it to the aftermarket to slap a turbo kit on it. The "cruise and smell the flowers" buyers far outnumber the "grip it and rip it" ones.

    Plus it may have something to do with Aprilia reserving their best motors for their own products.
    When life throws you curves, aim for the apex
    Current stable: 09 Thruxton / 09 FZ6
    Sold List: 97 Ninja500R, 03 SV650K3, 01 Ducati 750Sport Dark, 73 CB350/4, 03 F650GSA, 08 Gixxer600, 03 Gixxer600, 91 VFR750F, 09 KLX250, 06 Thruxton 900, 08 Spyder RS , 12 Street TripleR, 15 RC390, 02 VFR800, 09 KLX250S, 10 F650GS
    JLohPhotos
    ... Motorcycles are kind of like Baskin Robbins... You're looking at 31 flavors of ice cream, don't you kind of want to know what they all taste like?...
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