Front end toe in.

[Wildrice]

Has anyone that had the laser alignment have the chance to measure the front tire's toe in. I'm at approx 1/8" positive toe in, the F3's doesn't pull, & the tires show no abnormal wear pattern or feathering. Maybe I don't need the laser alignment. Ii had a shop & tire wear or pulling was the easiest way to determine mis-alignment--tire balance was a biggest problem.
Darrell

[IGETAROUND]

Daryl,

Perhaps your correct you don't need an alignment; however the only way to know that for certain is to have the alignment checked by a competent firm that you trust. Most people that do laser alignments don't charge for what isn't needed.

[Peter Aawen]

A small amount of positive toe-in like that shouldn't hurt; in fact, since the front wheels DO get pushed back & the wheel alignment spreads a little (read 'by a tiny amount' there!) as the rear wheel drives them forwards, a small amount of toe-in might actually be beneficial!

1/8th of an inch might be pushing beyond 'a small amount' just a touch, but if you aren't experiencing any pull, abnormal tread wear, or feathering, & your F3 doesn't 'tram-line' &/or feel twitchy in the steering department, you are probably OK!! Altho, as IGA suggests, getting it checked & adjusted if necessary by a reputable aligner might be the only way you'll ever know if it could/might be better!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

A small amount of positive toe-in like that shouldn't hurt; in fact, since the front wheels DO get pushed back & the wheel alignment spreads a little (read 'by a tiny amount' there!) as the rear wheel drives them forwards, a small amount of toe-in might actually be beneficial!

1/8th of an inch might be pushing beyond 'a small amount' just a touch, but if you aren't experiencing any pull, abnormal tread wear, or feathering, & your F3 doesn't 'tram-line' &/or feel twitchy in the steering department, you are probably OK!! Altho, as IGA suggests, getting it checked & adjusted if necessary by a reputable aligner might be the only way you'll ever know if it could/might be better!

Peter - He didn't say whether the 1/8 was total ....or each side .......and I think there has to be some toe-in to prevent wander....... Mike

[jcthorne]

The wheels also toe outward as weight is added. You want a slight toe in at normal loaded ride height and enough so that the wheels never pass from toe in to toe out during a curve or braking maneuver.

[Wildrice]

Peter - He didn't say whether the 1/8 was total ....or each side .......and I think there has to be some toe-in to prevent wander....... Mike

I measure toe-in with a carpentry tape measure secured via duct tape to the lower outer tire tread--with the tape measure going under the front of the Spyder. The outer tire tread is straight as compared to the curved inner treads. I pull the secured tape measure tight to read the opposite tire on the same other outer tire tread. Then I do the same on the rear side of the tires. That difference equaled approx 1/8" possible +1/32" -0" of an inch positive toe-in total. What else can the laser alignment do--other than verify the handlebars are in the center position when driving straight forward. My understanding is that there are currently no shims for caster or camber--just replace parts if out of spec. Am I correct in my assumption? The shop I had was next to a Tire Store store which had the Hunter Alignment Rack System. My shop replace parts that were necessary to correct alignment issues beyond the ability of shim correction. I also worked for Hunter Engineering as a Field Sales Rep thus I was quite familiar with alignments, demo's, etc. I do find it interesting that no one has available info as to the correct toe-in spec .

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I measure toe-in with a carpentry tape measure secured via duct tape to the lower outer tire tread--with the tape measure going under the front of the Spyder. The outer tire tread is straight as compared to the curved inner treads. I pull the secured tape measure tight to read the opposite tire on the same other outer tire tread. Then I do the same on the rear side of the tires. That difference equaled approx 1/8" possible +1/32" -0" of an inch positive toe-in total. What else can the laser alignment do--other than verify the handlebars are in the center position when driving straight forward. My understanding is that there are currently no shims for caster or camber--just replace parts if out of spec. Am I correct in my assumption? The shop I had was next to a Tire Store store which had the Hunter Alignment Rack System. My shop replace parts that were necessary to correct alignment issues beyond the ability of shim correction. I also worked for Hunter Engineering as a Field Sales Rep thus I was quite familiar with alignments, demo's, etc. I do find it interesting that no one has available info as to the correct toe-in spec .

Unless I mis-understood or just missed something !!! .... Doing it this way could result in one side being Perfect and the other side being very Off !!!! ..... the Lazer I believe can do each side separately ...... Maybe Ann or Joe can verify ....... Mike

[Bob Denman]

If you're happy with how your bike handles: put your wallet back in your pocket!
But how much is "Peace of mind" worth to you?
Your tires might have the perfect alignment: but are they both pointed in the proper direction?

[Peter Aawen]

....... I do find it interesting that no one has available info as to the correct toe-in spec .

Tell me about it!


I suspect that the 'factory' setting intent is to have everything (camber, caster, toe) = zero at 'factory static ride height' & whether they measure that with a 'nominal rider load' aboard or not, I have been unable to determine....

And then, once the initial assembly is completed in the factory, the Spyder is crated up before it leaves the factory & it is freighted some distance before it is finally assembled by techs of varying degrees of competency & understanding before being loaded up & ridden by owners who may vary significantly in weight, all of which can cause some (hopefully minor) changes to the factory intended w/align settings. And as has already been mentioned, the suspension design actually changes the alignment as the suspension cycles, so each 'owner's static ryde height' is quite likely to be a tad different, & therefore the static w/align settings for each Spyder in ryding trim are even more likely to be somewhat different.... more

But like Bob said, if you are happy with the way it handles (& how your tires are wearing) then is it really important to you to know that your wheel alignment is 'correct'?? Especially since, despite many people asking, BRP themselves either aren't telling or just don't really seem to know exactly what 'correct' might be?? Me, I've added a few bits & modded a few bits & using those bits plus some possibly dubious techniques that nevertheless work, I've set MY Spyder's wheel alignment to settings that work for ME! I doubt they'd work quite so well for anyone else, but for me, I'm happy that my Spyder handles the way I want it to & that my tires don't wear oddly or too quickly!

And yes, finding out the degree of toe-in on each side IS reasonably important because varying that for either side can make a significant difference to the way your Spyder handles! But most of the more rudimentary measuring methods can't easily determine that & often only report 'Total Toe'; while most alignment systems designed to use precision instruments like lasers in their measuring can, especially if they are in the hands of an experienced & skilled operator.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Peter, I went on the factory tour during the Homecoming event .... it was pointed out that the " alignment " is set at the factory prior to shipment ....... there is no Camber or Castor adjustments for BRP's front suspension / steering assembly ..... as far as folks claiming they can " FEEL " a dramatic improvement after they get a Lazer alignment, I don't buy that... Unless the alignment is off by a HUGH amount, which is highly unlikely...... Bad alignment is usually found after about 5,000 miles when the Front tires have an unusual Wear pattern..... and by then even fixing the alignment won't save the tires that are badly worn .... But the next set will wear much, much longer ...... Mike

[Peter Aawen]

That's true Mike, there are no 'stock or factory' adjustment methods built-in on our Spyders, and the factory alignment relies on all the individual suspension & steering components being exactly the right length & bolting up in exactly the right places the right way so that the 'alignment specifications' for our Spyders re things like camber, caster, & toe all end up as ZERO - which is sorta OK & not an uncommon practice across many vehicle manufacturers today.... That's not necessarily ideal if you want something that handles well, rides well, & goes exactly where you point it when you point it, but it does make for relatively easy & cheap manufacture & it works alright for the majority of buyers.

As for the feel thing, I certainly DO believe it!! I recently did a laser alignment on an F3 that had done less than 20 kms since it left the dealer after assembly and it had 25mm of total toe-in - that's ONE FULL INCH of Toe-In!! I don't know if it had been aligned at all by the dealer, or if someone at the dealers had fiddled with the steering arm length settings during the pre-delivery, or even if they were set incorrectly at the factory; but there was certainly absobloodylutely NO TIME between that Spyder being picked up & us running the lasers over it for anyone else to have played with it or for it to have hit a knock/road hazard etc hard enough to have put the alignment out that much!! And that Spyder Ryder certainly DID feel a dramatic improvement after a proper alignment! And he's not alone - one fella I know rode 2/3rds of the way across Australia from Perth to our Spyder Muster near Adelaide on his virtually brand new Spyder, complaining about the twitchy & darty steering all the way and destroying a pair of front tires in the process, only for a laser alignment here to show a similar ERROR in his wheel alignment - almost an inch of toe-in from delivery!! Simple fix really, but neither the dealer nor BRP was going to contribute anything towards a new set of tires for him!!

Now admittedly, since many dealers here have taken up using the ROLO or similar Laser alignment systems, the number of Spyders hitting the streets with really bad 'factory alignments' like that has plummeted, but to my knowledge we still see at least one or two poor alignments a month on Spyders ranging from virtually straight off the showroom floor to those that've done 5-10,000kms or so... And yet with the replacement of a handful of straight bolts with eccentric bolts &/or swapping some fixings for a few adjustable or snail/cam fittings, pretty much the entire front end & steering geometry of pretty much any Spyder CAN be readily made fully adjustable & tunable in a way to suit any driving needs... but it would be an added cost & complexity to their manufacture, & who really want's to pay for that?!? And yet whilever WE do that sort of thing at our own expense, BRP won't see any pressing need to do it at the factory, just like continuing to run those dodgy Kenda tires - while it seems most ryders are happy enough with 'near enough is good enough & mediocre is OK' even tho 'phreaking phenomenal' could be realatively easily & cheaply achieved, why should they bother...

[Wildrice]

Unless I mis-understood or just missed something !!! .... Doing it this way could result in one side being Perfect and the other side being very Off !!!! ..... the Lazer I believe can do each side separately ...... Maybe Ann or Joe can verify ....... Mike

Mike--it that were the case the tires would have a bad wear pattern. In the end it's how the vehicle handles, tire wear and feathering. If those 3 items are OK--then what purpose would an alignment serve?? Plus if one side is off, you most like would be riding with the handlebars slightly turned to go straight.
There is a basic laser alignment charge--over $100. If someone went into an alignment shop & the tech said everything was good--now pay me the $100+, the customer might be unhappy--thus even if everything is OK the shops will always touch up something to justify the price, after all, they did spend labor time & want happy customers. That has been my experience. At this time--I'm keeping my wallet in my pocket---but I'm still curious as to the secrecy of toe-in information. That's why my initial post was to question anyone who had the laser alignment if they had the opportunity to check toe-in after their alignment.

[cptjam]

I'll have to measure the next one at the wheel. We align within .125 @ 150".
If you are happy, leave it alone. We check it for free. If it's off, you know. We have had hundreds of people swear their bike was fine; we align it, and they are flabbergasted! Absolutely shocked at the difference. We were, and that's what got us into this.

[Wildrice]

I'll have to measure the next one at the wheel. We align within .125 @ 150".
If you are happy, leave it alone. We check it for free. If it's off, you know. We have had hundreds of people swear their bike was fine; we align it, and they are flabbergasted! Absolutely shocked at the difference. We were, and that's what got us into this.

Big Thank You for the info Cptjam--that .125 is awfully close to 1/8". There are always several factors in front end alignment & the 1st time one bumps a curb too hard--things may change. I'd love to see your shop but OH to NV is pushing 2000 miles. Thanks Again.
E-5 Feit US Army---I used to pleasure skydive with a MarNav group out of a Cessna 6 passenger including the pilot. All seats removed except for pilots--still tight.
Darrell

[jcthorne]

Big Thank You for the info Cptjam--that .125 is awfully close to 1/8". There are always several factors in front end alignment & the 1st time one bumps a curb too hard--things may change. I'd love to see your shop but OH to NV is pushing 2000 miles. Thanks Again.
E-5 Feit US Army---I used to pleasure skydive with a MarNav group out of a Cessna 6 passenger including the pilot. All seats removed except for pilots--still tight.
Darrell

You did not read his comment correctly. He said they adjust the toe WITHIN 0.125 over a 150" measuring distance. That is a tolerance, not a toe spec. This would be the equivalent of measuring the tow within 0.0125 inches at the wheel rims (15"). The lasers simply move the measuring point far enough apart that the toe can be read to a much higher level of accuracy.

The reason no one has quoted the BRP spec is because what BRP shows in the manuals is with fixed length spacers installed where the shocks go and it does not result in a good real world alignment.

[cptjam]

The laser on the hub, the target is 75" Away, and the tolerance is .125. At the wheel, that number is tiny. The factory target much larger.

[cptjam]

JC beat me to it!
Darrell, come to SpyderFever in council bluffs, Iowa next month. Easy ride, meet some great folks, get Squared Away! Joe