Best ECU flash results ever for me

[monkeyboymorton]

To Spyd_Piper

What I think Bob is trying to say (apologies if not) and what I think a few of us want to know is this:

• What is the performance increase across the normal rev range (say 0-7500rpm) with this remap
• Lets assume a standard bike with the 1330 for this question
• Is there only a gain by revving the engine higher?
• Or is there a gain by not revving any higher than stock?

My own assumption is that there will be a gain in the normal rev range from improved timing, fuelling etc, and Dennis' posts indicate this. But I don't have any evidence to back this up.

If you want me to be specific about my bike it's an F3, 2015, 1330 SE6, no mods, 95RON fuel (about 91 octane US equivalent).

Thanks in advance.

[Bob Denman]

Thanks for helping me out! That is exactly what I was so awkwardly referring to!

[Firefly]

While raising the rpm limiter will extend your pull in each gear, it's unlikely (and inefficient) to wind it to max rpm in each gear. You're better (and quicker) if you hit the top power band and then shift. The higher rpm limit should give you a higher top speed, but I know people who have hit 140 on an F3. Anyone really want or need more than that? Not me.
I want more quickness, not top end.
This ecm update sounds like a great idea.... until someone like Aerocharger comes out with a kit for the 1330. I'm hoping they do.

[Bob Denman]

Dan,
Do you remember the price of those Aerocharger kits??
($5,000)

Faint.gif

That's why I'm looking at more reasonable alternatives!

(But if you let them use your bike for the development of a kit: they've GOT to give you a break on the price!)

[trikermutha]

I wish you were closer I love to see your RT Spyder and results from this improvement. I always felt the Spyder is holding back what it can really do.

[Spyd_Piper]

oh.
Gains are from 1000rpm to 9000rpm. Everywhere above 60% throttle. - This was given by Dennis early on.

There are many things that go into remapping. But as a real good example on this 1330,
As a rider, you would assume that when you crack the throttle (ask for 100%) then thats what you get. Not true.
It will vary depending on conditions. Very seldom ever getting even near full throttle.
30 or 40% throttle opening into a 1330 cc engine is not laying down a lot of power. Too much acceleration or even sign of wheel slip - throttle closes. Reach a certain speed, throttle closes.

Just allowing full throttle is a huge increase. Then tuning and remapping yields up to 20% torque increase at ALL rpm. It becomes quite a different bike.

Not many people have actually felt what the 1330 can actually do.

[Dennis in Lodi]

Thanks to the powers of the forum, I have a new testing buddy who has a brand new F3s. As I suggested about testing your stock performance yourself, this gentleman already conducted those test on HIS F3s. He reports my stock test results are pretty much spot on for HIS F3s. So much for an F3s being a hotter bike??? We will be getting together very soon as have always enjoyed letting anyone play with my toys. I'm 20 minutes north of Madison WI. If forum members who really have an interest in what this gentleman says about HIS OPINION, I'll encourage him to post.

I wish you were closer I love to see your RT Spyder and results from this improvement. I always felt the Spyder is holding back what it can really do.

[Spyd_Piper]

I will add some more information. That should be straight forward.

1 - The engine rating of 115hp and 96ft lbs is based on current installed use. This can change with modifications. (airflow and mapping etc)
2 - The ecu programming design is Torque Based. (Common new school tuning)
3 - It requests, allows or limits torque output as programmed for different scenarios.
4 - Nowhere in the stock programming is 96ft lbs requested or allowed.
5 - If you've never heard your intake "honk" under acceleration - you simply aren't getting full power.
6 - Step 1 - Allowing stock ratings to be obtained. Step 2 - Retune engine for better output. (its not only peak power - its all rpm)


Here is example of Torque Limiting in action.

[Bob Denman]

Dennis,
I think that you misunderstand what we're saying...
ANYTIME we see something that sounds too good to be true: we're going to ask for some verification of those claims. This certainly isn't a rap against your and the folks at Monster Fuel injection: it's just common sense!
We ask what we think are pertinent questions because we're interested in this exciting project, and want to learn more.

[Bob Denman]

You just cost them a sale...
After thinking about what the Piper had posted: I was feeling confident enough to bite down on this one.
They can thank you; for your great salesmanship.

[wingit3611]

You'll be sorry that you missed a good thing because your thin skinned.

[Bob Denman]

I won't stand for being insulted; nobody should.
By the way:

[Doc - Riverside]

Cool it Bob. The truth hurts.

[Bob Denman]

There is no truth in his statements...

...Unless you count his statement regarding my ownership of a Spyder.
Having owned two of them, and having a third one on order should give me more than enough reason to research what modifications I'd like to make to the new bike.

[Spyd_Piper]

Some questions are legit. But agree some are clutter. (especially when the info was posted but skimmed past)

I should add more about some things.

The stock machine is really targeted to get new riders into the sport. But it falls real short for Avid bikers. Even the new 1330 engine lacks performance and speed from the older 990 twin.
The nanny and throttle control is great to protect new users. Stops wheel spin. Slows them down from going to fast. Protects the engine from silly mistakes.
But people used to bikes have had their own control of speed limits and power delivery.

Another example is that the stock ignition mapping is fine for 87 octane. 91 is recommended for protection. Some people will just throw in old fuel laying in the garage all winter. But more importantly new users (or even some "un-techy" biker guys) could potentially lug the engine way too much. Just be in the wrong gear for the situation and not understand the sound of the engine tells them. Or even the vibration and feel. Hell, BRP had to put in lights so they know when to shift.
The more experienced person, the more they know the sound of an engine and can ride the power band and shift by feel. They are in control of power delivery. And how fast (or quick) they want to go.

But again, below 60% throttle is everything that that stock offers, Fuel milage, emissions, traction etc. Past that mark becomes Jeckyl vs Hyde.

Link wasn't working earlier but I think it will now.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Some questions are legit. But agree some are clutter. (especially when the info was posted but skimmed past)

I should add more about some things.

The stock machine is really targeted to get new riders into the sport. But it falls real short for Avid bikers. Even the new 1330 engine lacks performance and speed from the older 990 twin.
The nanny and throttle control is great to protect new users. Stops wheel spin. Slows them down from going to fast. Protects the engine from silly mistakes.
But people used to bikes have had their own control of speed limits and power delivery.

Another example is that the stock ignition mapping is fine for 87 octane. 91 is recommended for protection. Some people will just throw in old fuel laying in the garage all winter. But more importantly new users (or even some "un-techy" biker guys) could potentially lug the engine way too much. Just be in the wrong gear for the situation and not understand the sound of the engine tells them. Or even the vibration and feel. Hell, BRP had to put in lights so they know when to shift.
The more experienced person, the more they know the sound of an engine and can ride the power band and shift by feel. They are in control of power delivery. And how fast (or quick) they want to go.

But again, below 60% throttle is everything that that stock offers, Fuel milage, emissions, traction etc. Past that mark becomes Jeckyl vs Hyde.

.... however, IMHO it's not possible to " LUG " any Spyder that has the " SE " Transmission ............. Mike

[jcthorne]

But again, below 60% throttle is everything that that stock offers, Fuel milage, emissions, traction etc. Past that mark becomes Jeckyl vs Hyde.

Anything specific you would need to know or questions to be asked for a tune? IE what sort of information is needed for the individual bike and owner and how might those answers change the tune parameters programmed.

For instance, I would want about all the power the engine is capable of short of engine damage or reduced reliability. Would still want the traction control and stability control to function at lower throttle. 91 octane minimum is no problem for this sort of application, I do that anyway. Also would want to keep a reasonable rpm limit. Kinda vague but this is for conversation. Also look forward to your videos.

[Firefly]

First, I have totally fallen in love with my new FLASHED RT. Before the flash, I had to pull a sport bike out of the garage to scratch a speed itch. Even though I say I'm working for the forum members, it's frustrating my information is dismissed as not being backed up. I provided detailed performance improvements that are LOW RPM ROLL ON TESTS. These test reflect what my bike is doing in the real world. When all the tests videos are edited you can study the real time results and make an informed decision for yourself.
Please conduct the simple test yourself if you even have a 1330 motor to test with. It's not difficult, you can count seconds in your head or maybe have a stop watch app to confirm if my base line readings are accurate. test 1. 1st gear 6 seconds of throttle, how fast does your 1330 go?? test 2. 2nd gear 35 mph roll on for 6 seconds. How fast does your bike go? test 3. 3rd gear 45 mph roll on for 6 seconds, how fast are YOU going. I extracted ALL MY TIMES OFF THE VIDEO ELAPSED TIMES.
How could ANY bike be up over 20 mph with the same test that is a LOW RPM ROLL ON TEST if it didn't have HUGE IMPROVEMENTS IN LOW END PERFORMANCE????
Go for it Bob and keep the thread going on and on until you have filled the thread up with all your comments and cute post so no one can actually find any real information in the thread.

I gotta chime in here......

I don't think Bob's questions were out of line. He had a genuine interest in the product.

I believe your power increases to be real.... but.... counting manually and posting what your roll on to 35, etc. and then trying to compare it to someone else on an F3 who is also manually counting simply is not going to be accurate.

I think it's fair to say you've had great increases, but if you're going to post numbers they should be as accurate as possible. Maybe your video shows some other methods being used, but even a stopwatch isn't going to be accurate. The true test would be a dyno, or use an onboard race computer like I used to have on my 2008 GS. You could program this to start timing as soon as it felt the bike move, it can time 0-60, 30-60, slowdowns, etc. This unit has accelerometers, wheel sensors, etc. and is very accurate. Can't remember the name of it.
If I get one of these ECU's done I will hook that race computer up to my F3 and do some testing. Maybe in the fall.

Another big difference to consider when comparing bike A to bike B is the rider. Not only their weight, but their throttle response, etc.
The F3 is much lighter than the RT and has less wind resistance. There's no sound reason the F3 will not clock quicker and faster numbers with like riders and environments.

I'm excited about this product and hope it sells well for them. Many people will be skeptics--- and that is a good thing! We have far too many people not asking questions and demanding facts these days.

One of my favorite quotes:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ~Carl Sagan

Not that your claims here are 'extraordinary', I think they're pretty typical of what should be expected with a quality ECU remap.

Thanks for your testing and information.

[Firefly]

Dan,
Do you remember the price of those Aerocharger kits??
($5,000)

Faint.gif

That's why I'm looking at more reasonable alternatives!

(But if you let them use your bike for the development of a kit: they've GOT to give you a break on the price!)

Yes.... I remember the cost of them... $5,000. Sounds crazy... but if they had one for the F3 at that price I would seriously consider it.... because.....

ricky-bobby-pray-dear-baby-jesus-i-wanna-go-fast.jpg

[sprdmx]

Yes.... I remember the cost of them... $5,000. Sounds crazy... but if they had one for the F3 at that price I would seriously consider it.... because.....

ricky-bobby-pray-dear-baby-jesus-i-wanna-go-fast.jpg

I second that! I had my old 2012 rss and finally decided to buy that aerocharger kit only to find out they stopped producing them lol. Now I have my f3 Daytona and I love it but more power is always needed!

[Schwingel9]

Looking forward to getting my doors blown off by an old retired guys heavy sailboat this weekend.

[Firefly]

I second that! I had my old 2012 rss and finally decided to buy that aerocharger kit only to find out they stopped producing them lol. Now I have my f3 Daytona and I love it but more power is always needed!

Someone has an 09 GS with the Aerocharger on it and Barnett clutch for $9,000.
If I had extra cash laying around I'd buy it.

[Spyd_Piper]

Anything specific you would need to know or questions to be asked for a tune? IE what sort of information is needed for the individual bike and owner and how might those answers change the tune parameters programmed.

For instance, I would want about all the power the engine is capable of short of engine damage or reduced reliability. Would still want the traction control and stability control to function at lower throttle. 91 octane minimum is no problem for this sort of application, I do that anyway. Also would want to keep a reasonable rpm limit. Kinda vague but this is for conversation. Also look forward to your videos.

Yes, low throttle is everything factory.

Need info:
- current modifications (that effect airflow in or out)
- planned future modifications
- fuel octane used (87,91,93,100, 100+)
- desired rev limit (stock for warranty purposes, best safe limit, highest safe limit, xx because this is a race engine with new valve springs and pistons crank work etc)
NOTE: +500rpm (8600) is completely harmless and good medium ground. 8800 is ok. 9200 is absolute max. 9500 and piston speed is too fast for reliability. 8100-8800 is bullet proof. Above 8800 - user assumes risk. So this is for engine builders or tuning shops.
- wanted speed limits (stock, xx or xx, none)
OFFROAD RACE USE>
NOTE: There is a speed threshold where throttle is shut down (in steps) in each gear. Beyond that becomes part throttle and can climb in speed but is solely based on extra help from hills or wind. We want to know the speed you want engine to pull to. Before limiting. You can expect 13% speed beyond that under certain conditions. Example - stock 3th gear pulls to 130kph. But can creep to 150kph after 5 miles. I want it to just pull to 150kph. (or in miles) (And then 170kph would be obtainable under slow acceleration circumstances)
Basically - the rev limiter can be your speed limiter for gears 1,2,3. 4th gear will get to and set your speed limit. 5-6 are overdrives.

If you don't know something, don't worry. It will be set to whats usable and sensible.

I suspect most will want
- better power all over.
- run 91 octane
- leave stock rev limiter
- leave stock speed limiter (or bump RT to F3 spec etc)

Racer types
- slip on exhaust or cat delete modification (off road race use only)
- fuel adjusted for slip on
- 91 or 93 octane
- 8600-8800 rev limit
- pull hard to 120mph, then limit as normal.

[monkeyboymorton]

Thanks for the last post, really useful.

I would say I fall into the 'what most will want' category. Just better all round performance without pushing it too far.

Although I do like the sound of removing the speed limiter and 'pull hard to 120'

[jcthorne]

Yes, low throttle is everything factory.

Need info:
- current modifications (that effect airflow in or out)
- planned future modifications
- fuel octane used (87,91,93,100, 100+)
- desired rev limit (stock for warranty purposes, best safe limit, highest safe limit, xx because this is a race engine with new valve springs and pistons crank work etc)
NOTE: +500rpm (8600) is completely harmless and good medium ground. 8800 is ok. 9200 is absolute max. 9500 and piston speed is too fast for reliability. 8100-8800 is bullet proof. Above 8800 - user assumes risk. So this is for engine builders or tuning shops.
- wanted speed limits (stock, xx or xx, none)

As is usually the case with me, think my choices might be a bit different but please comment if I have not chosen wisely. This is all about learning....

- low restriction muffler and primary muffler delete
- 93 octane but there are areas we travel to where 91 is all that is available.
- Stock 8100 Rev limit. The ecm does log this...permanently.
- No speed limit. Why would I not want the governor removed? Or perhaps I should have it set at some speed rating consistent with the S rated tires we use (not Kendas but lets not start another tire discussion here). But I would never spend much time there so heat build up in the tires is not really a concern.

Bits of information on lingo in Spydeeland for Spyd_Piper, on all 1330 equipped Spyders, there is a catalytic converter inside the primary muffler under the bike as its shipped from BRP. The typical way of getting rid of it is by installing a primary muffler bypass pipe. There is no part on the diagrams or service manuals referred to as a catalytic converter.

There are a number of low restriction mufflers available for the Spyders. It just so happens the stock muffler on the F3S (short turned up muffler) is pretty low restriction. Less than many of the after market mufflers for the RT and F3T. I do not know of any Spyder vendors that refer to the exhaust kits or muffler replacements as 'slip on'. That's more a Harley crowd term. Most mufflers for the Spyders are direct bolt ons using the stock cone and donut joint. They do not slip on as there is no slip joint with clamp.

I like where this is going and hope to see some real world results posted here from some who have tried it (other than Dennis) and would like to see Dennis and others videos showing not only speed but driveability, sound and the like. What's it LIKE to drive, not just wide open throttle.