F3 SE6 and "Target" RPM's?

[newbert]

Does anyone know what the recommended RPM range or "sweet spot" is for the F3 SE6? At what RPM is it recommended that you shift up?

Thanks!

[JKMSPYDER]

On my '15 F3-S I upshift between 3500 and 4000 RPM with my SE6. I think anything above 3000 would be OK. I prefer to manually downshift and do that at about 3000 RPM. Hope this helps.

[newbert]

On my '15 F3-S I upshift between 3500 and 4000 RPM with my SE6. I think anything above 3000 would be OK. I prefer to manually downshift and do that at about 3000 RPM. Hope this helps.

It does. Thanks!

[Slowpoke387]

4000 upshifts are seamless. 3000 downshifts are seamless. Dont wait for the machine to downshift for you, its an annoying affair at best.

[TRLBLZR1]

Engine doesn't even begin to produce power until higher RPM's, so why limit up-shifts @ 3k?
It hasn't even hit it's "power-band!" (One of the most mis-used powersports phrases lol.)

But seriously: Last thing you want to do (IMO) is make an engine LUG, right? 60%, maybe 65% of red-line is where I typically up-shift when I'm not trying to "squeeze juice."
And since the engine will spend much of it's life spinning/cruising in the 3k realm (or less), why not spin her up once in a while and enjoy?

~Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bob Denman]

I can't believe that this discussion is ongoing...
The fact of the matter, is that the 1330 has no sweet-spot: It really doesn't matter when you shift: the bike will like it just fine!
The answers in here tell a whole lot more about the riders; than it does the bikes!

[Easy Rider]

Does anyone know what the recommended RPM range or "sweet spot" is for the F3 SE6? At what RPM is it recommended that you shift up?

It depends on what your objective IS.
If it is fuel economy, shifting about 3500 and never getting above 4500 or so is fine.
If it is "sport riding", then shift around 4500 minimum.
The red line is the limit but practically about 1K below that is better.

[Easy Rider]

But seriously: Last thing you want to do (IMO) is make an engine LUG, right?
~Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not wrong maybe but somewhat misleading.

You are in no way "lugging" the engine until you get down around 2500 RPM....in normal circumstances.

Now......if you are fully loaded and going uphill while pulling a trailer.......bump that up to 3500 or so.

[Bob Denman]

I shift into second at third at 2,000 rpm.
Fourth, fith and sixth get grabbed at 2,500 rpm.
I'm normally in sixth gear at 39 mph.
The bike doesn't lug: it just puts it's shoulder against the load, and makes magic happen!

CAVEAT: When climbing a steep hill: I will let the rpm levels come up a bit...


People worrying about lugging these engines can give it a rest.
You're trying to apply the warning given to owners of Post WW2 British sports cars. They had notoriously weak bottom ends in their engines, and they would break stuff if you didn't keep the revs up.
Rest assured that Rotax knows how to build a strong engine!

[petegtsv10]

The correct response to your questions requires more info from you. If you are just leaving a light with other traffic, low rpm shifts will be fine. (not so low as to "lug" engine, however) If you are merging onto an interstate, a minimum of a medium rpm is appropriate. If you are looking for max acceleration, then max rpm is required (near redline). Think of what an automatic transmission does in a performance car: If I pull away easily, it'll shift at 1500 rpm and be in 8th gear at 40 mph. If I floor the pedal, it'll shift at 7500 rpm and stay in 1st gear till almost 60 mph! Quite simply, the more degrees you rotate the throttle, the higher the rpm you should go before a shift.

[Easy Rider]

I shift into second at third at 2,000 rpm.
Fourth, fith and sixth get grabbed at 2,500 rpm.
I'm normally in sixth gear at 39 mph.
The bike doesn't lug: it just puts it's shoulder against the load, and makes magic happen!

Oh come on Bob.....REALLY ???

The engine idles about 1300 RPM so you are shifting only 700 RPM above idle.......with an engine that redlines at 8K ???

I don't believe in making like you are on a race track either but what you quoted above is extreme in the other direction.

At engine speeds that low things can happen suddenly that WILL lug the engine......and cause damage.
What you are doing is NOT good.
Loosen up a little.......or maybe you need to get a golf cart instead.

[ARtraveler]

Some of us mentioned this in one of your previous threads.

From a personal standpoint, I shift between 3500 and 4000 most times. I like seamless, quiet, shifts. Also, like to let the machine downshift on its own--unless I need the power now--then I will manually downshift.

The 1330 does have a lot of low end torque.

Another .02 for the pile.

[Bob Denman]

Oh come on Bob.....REALLY ???
The engine idles about 1300 RPM so you are shifting only 700 RPM above idle.......with an engine that redlines at 8K ???
I don't believe in making like you are on a race track either but what you quoted above is extreme in the other direction.
At engine speeds that low things can happen suddenly that WILL lug the engine......and cause damage.
What you are doing is NOT good.
Loosen up a little.......or maybe you need to get a golf cart instead.

I never said that you had to ride the way that I do...
And frankly: you're an idiot for sticking with that old tired "lug the engine" line!
The shifting is computer controlled: the bike will not let you shift too early!

Golf carts only have one useful place: the Town Dump!

[Easy Rider]

The shifting is computer controlled: the bike will not let you shift too early!

I have no personal knowledge of that......but am HIGHLY skeptical.
Just the numbers that you provided pretty much convinced me that it is NOT true.

ANY engine can be "lugged" and damaged......unless maybe an automatic transmission down shift saves it.

What happens with your machine if you approach a really STEEP hill at your minimum RPM in top gear and just hold the throttle steady as you try to climb that hill ??

Anyway, shifting like you claimed takes most of the fun out of riding.

And it definitely is NOT good advice for those with a manual transmission and a smaller engine.
But I suppose you will want to argue about that too.

[LateLifeCrisis]

I shift into second at third at 2,000 rpm.
Fourth, fith and sixth get grabbed at 2,500 rpm.
I'm normally in sixth gear at 39 mph.
The bike doesn't lug: it just puts it's shoulder against the load, and makes magic happen!

CAVEAT: When climbing a steep hill: I will let the rpm levels come up a bit...


People worrying about lugging these engines can give it a rest.
You're trying to apply the warning given to owners of Post WW2 British sports cars. They had notoriously weak bottom ends in their engines, and they would break stuff if you didn't keep the revs up.
Rest assured that Rotax knows how to build a strong engine!

While stationed in England after the war, Dad and a few of his friends pooled their resources and bought a "Humber Hawk," or as Dad called it a "Hummer Hawk." He told stories of the "Bloody B*tch" (yeah, they named HER) leaving them stranded numerous times and you didn't dare start a trip unless you took along your trusty mechanic's tool bag and left word with someone at the base as to where you were headed. He also said SHE ran best when you kept HER in first or second second; third - if the road ahead was reasonably clear and only used fourth if you were going like a bat out of h*ll. It couldn't have been too bad as he always smile when he recalled the experiences of that period in his life. Me thinks the beer helped as well.......

[Bob Denman]

I have no personal knowledge of that......but am HIGHLY skeptical.
Just the numbers that you provided pretty much convinced me that it is NOT true.
ANY engine can be "lugged" and damaged......unless maybe an automatic transmission down shift saves it.
What happens with your machine if you approach a really STEEP hill at your minimum RPM in top gear and just hold the throttle steady as you try to climb that hill ??
Anyway, shifting like you claimed takes most of the fun out of riding.

Are You Serious.jpg

Did I ever say that I never downshift depending on load and circumstances?
As far as "taking the fun out of riding": how do you define "fun"?

I simply shift at the lowest possible rpm levels allowed. My bike pulls hard from those levels, and I've never had a bit of trouble with clutches, connecting rods, crankshaft bearings, drivebelts, etc...

If you don't want to believe me: try it for yourself just once...

[Road-Kill]

I can't believe that this discussion is ongoing...
The fact of the matter, is that the 1330 has no sweet-spot: It really doesn't matter when you shift: the bike will like it just fine!
The answers in here tell a whole lot more about the riders; than it does the bikes!

I agree 100%.

Adding to it: BRP responded in a previous thread because there was an ongoing and very stupid argument about what RPM to shift in. They (BRP) said "the tranny will handle it" in reference to whatever RPM you are in. In my opinion....what is your total added weight? how fast are you accelerating? I keep my RPMs between 3,000-4,000 until 6th gear then I let her rip, unless I'm accelerating really fast such as getting on a highway. My thoughts.

[Easy Rider]

If you don't want to believe me: try it for yourself just once...

Just because you are getting away with it does NOT change the fact that it is NOT A GOOD THING TO DO ALL THE TIME.

But I don't blame you for not taking my word for it.
The next time you are in a motorcycle shop......of any kind......Spyder is better.......ask every mechanic/technician that you can find about this.
Pick the ones who are over 40 years old. They don't teach stuff like this to new mechanics these days.

And then don't believe them either.
You certainly are free to do whatever you want with your ride.
Giving out bad advice to others, however, is something quite different.

[petegtsv10]

Here's an interesting observation regarding shifting at too low of an RPM: My ZO6 , which has gobs of TQ (650 lb/ft most available just above idle!), will indicate "shift denied" in the instrument cluster if you try to paddle shift the automatic upwards too soon. With the incredible TQ it produces, it could physically handle cruising and accelerating from < 1000 rpm, but the computer won't allow that. I wonder if it's related to "lugging". The manual version can fairly easily leave a stoplight in 5th gear if you wanted to prove a point.

[Bob Denman]

Just because you are getting away with it does NOT change the fact that it is NOT A GOOD THING TO DO ALL THE TIME.

But I don't blame you for not taking my word for it.
The next time you are in a motorcycle shop......of any kind......Spyder is better.......ask every mechanic/technician that you can find about this.
Pick the ones who are over 40 years old. They don't teach stuff like this to new mechanics these days.

And then don't believe them either. .

Ahhhhhhhh... But I DO believe them!
When you ask the mechanics about MODERN engines: they say that there's nothing to worry about.
ESPECIALLY in computer -controlled engines that also control the shift points.

But if you ask them about long-stroke, high displacement engines from a different era: their answers change.

[AeroPilot]

"At what RPM is it recommended that you shift up?" Since the OP was referencing the 1330 SE6 platform specific to the F3 bike, I suggest that he learn to shift by "feeling" and listening to his bike, with the guide of the ECO recommended shift points! I dont own his ryde and I doubt that I ryde like him, but BRP has provided a very good learning tool that will keep his bike revving and singing for a long time should he choose to learn from his bike starting with the engineers "suggested" shift points. My wife rides her 16 F3 and has over 50,000 miles on the 1330 SE6 platform, and I would NEVER suggest how she should shift and ryde her ryde!!

I would shift down to pass and kick the revs up a bit on my bike and have occasionally mentioned that, but I ryde my 15 RT SE6 and am still adjusting at 25,000 miles. I do recognize that the bike sounds "happy" when it hits the RPM where ECO says it recommends to shift to the next gear, but that green arrow can light up as low as 1700 RPM if I'm poking along on a down grade, and usually 2700 rpm on the flats going from 5th to 6th gear. I only check out the ECO as I am curious about what the BRP engineers seem to think is a good economical shift point for the way the bike RPM and I assume engine torque/vaccuum or other parameters tell it.

Your recommended RPMs will be specific to each shift and road parameter and desire for speed or to "smell the roses" My only suggestion is RYDE, RYDE, RYDE and sense and listen to your ryde. It will tell you when its happy. If you want to learn more about your bike (or your horse), listen to it and spend some time learning how it feels.

[Roadster Renovations]

2,500 to 3,500 unless I'm really hitting it. We just got back from the hills and mountains of East Tenn and we kept our PRM's at 3,000 and abovein the mountains. There were a few curves and elevational changes that we had to drop down to 1st gear even. Wife is now a pro at keeping the RT no lower than 3k when ryding in the mountains. I checked over our Sena 10's on what gear she is in at points against what I am doing with the F3 and she was matching me almost perfectly.

As far as the ECO shift points, they are crap. Way too low. It may not be possible to lug this awesome engine, but since this engine has only been out 3 years (I bought the RT the first year they came out) you really cannot say what long term effect will occur from lower RPM's. Knowing how much testing goes on by manufacturers, they usually will do endurance tests, but it is not cost effective to test an engine for 10 years to see what low shift points will do before bringing it to market. So that leaves the consumer (us) to be the final testers as we use the product. The 1330 seems to just hum at around the 3k area, so I keep it around there, even around town. The added advantage with running your RPM's higher is that the byke is more responsive in case you have to power out of the way from someone.

I am sure that there are as many right answers as there are ryders. We just each need to find what works for us and is best for the 1330.

[AeroPilot]

You are right Doc that the RPM's above 3000 put you on the first torque plateau of 89 lb-ft until you reach the "next Plateau" which is where peak reported torque of 96 lb-ft is reached. But for most practical purposes the Rotax 1330 is an exceptionally flat torquer. So ryde, ryde, ryde and smyle, smyle, smyle. The sales brochure shows the high torque in every gear from 2500 RPM to 6000 so your choice, your ryde. There is no wrong answer. 1330 torque curve.jpg The advantage you have on your F3 is that you can be pulling 94 lbft at 4500 in fifth while the RT is still on the first plateau at 4000 RPM in fifth gear at the same speed, (unless your wife drops a gear, heehee!)

[TRLBLZR1]

Because its a triple and "feels smooth", it probably doesn't appear to ever be lugging. On the other hand, I was always led to believe that a triple cyl. engine technically can't be truly balanced due to it's configuration. Funny how "perceptions change" over time. In the snowmobile industry, I never liked a triple cyl. machine. 3 of everything that could "let go" (break.) ~ But I sure like it in this machine!

[SmokeyXXX]

I am new to the world of shifting - first bike is the one I have now - 2015 F3-S SE6. I shift up at 3500 - 4000, and usually allow it to downshift on its own but if I do downshift it's at 2500 or less.

Some say that this engine likes to be tested - but I've never had mine over 5500, personal preference, but I baby her.

40 mph range, I'm in 4th gear - usually stay there until over 50 when I shift to 5th - anything above that I ride in 6th.