Downshifting questions .... good or bad practices??

Have been reading many other posts with suggestions about 'best' shifting practices to be followed. As a new owner of a 2017 F3L, I have been trying to 'learn' where my ryde feels best when slowing up. My background has been several sports cars over time, and a 250 Suzuki 'Hustler' 35 years ago, where manual downshifting and keeping revs up (moderately) was a long-standing habit. My 2017 F3L SE6 can do all the necessary downshifting by itself and, at first, I let it do its own thing. However, as I become more accustomed to it, and with my riding becoming faster as the miles progress, I seem to sense that the automatic downshifting takes place later and slower than I would instinctively do manually. The old sports car debate used to be - which do you want to wear out first: your clutch or your brakes? Aggressive down-shifters would gamble on their clutch; others just braked harder and more often.

My point with my new F3 is: left to myself, I'm inclined to approach my stops and slow-downs by twitching my left index finger and run down through the gears more so than by braking. So far, it works very smoothly, my brake pedal only comes into play very late, and by then I'm already down to 3rd or 2nd, without waiting for the computer. Usually, though, I let the computer do the final downshift to 1st. I find the computer-guided 'slows' to be rather late, and more jerky, especially that last downshift or two. Looking for experienced commentary on my technique; maybe I'll still have original brakes long after doing work on clutch or auto-shift paddle? Critical advice welcome; my feelings won't be hurt. I'm trying to learn from your experiences.

:gaah:.... This will cause a STIR ... transmissions and clutches cost waaaay more than Brake pads ..... I know ,I know these parts T's & C's ... are made a lot better than they used to be ( but so are the Pads !!! ) .... This being said - do I use the T & C for engine braking ... sometimes but not often.... Racers use them Alllllllllllllllllll the time ...but they allllllllllso don't pay for Parts and Labor. Basically I see NO benefit to use them on a regular basis instead of your brakes ........ jmho & I'm sticking to it :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:............. Mike :thumbup:

In all the manual shift cycles I had, it made complete since to downshift coming to a corner. If you did not you had to try to get it into 1st while setting still, sometimes a chore rocking the bike back and forth.

With the Spyder and the SE6, I let the bike downshift on its own unless I am going down a mountain towing the trailer, then as Mike stated, I downshift using the engine for a brake to keep me at a steady speed. I love having the option to downshift as needed, but seldom if ever do except to pass or going down hill.

I would catch myself trying to take off in 2nd gear every now and then on my Venture Royale. Can't happen on the Spyder.

:D I let my 2014 handle the largest portion of the downshifting process by itself... :thumbup:
It was smooth, seamless, and I'm LAZY! :D
But it's your bike: do with it as you will... :bowdown:

Just started on a 1000 mile loop to the Skyline Dr and The Blueridge (from Ohio) and we got 300 miles into our journey and our 2015 ST Limited downshifted (automatically) on a tight uphill corner and 'popped out of gear'?? Left us totally stranded in Maryland (we thought we were in West Virginia!). BRP Roadside offered $200 for towing but towing company wanted $500 to nearest dealer 100 miles away! Display indicated that it was shifting into reverse and 1st gear, but absolutely no 'clunk' and the engine would rev to the moon (no error codes and yes, the drive belt is perfectly intact). Bought the '15 ST new and it has 6000 miles on it.

It sounds a bit more like the gear position sensor might be the source of your problems.
Please let us know what happens next; good luck! :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911

:gaah:.... This will cause a STIR ... transmissions and clutches cost waaaay more than Brake pads ..... I know ,I know these parts T's & C's ... are made a lot better than they used to be ( but so are the Pads !!! ) .... This being said - do I use the T & C for engine braking ... sometimes but not often.... Racers use them Alllllllllllllllllll the time ...but they allllllllllso don't pay for Parts and Labor. Basically I see NO benefit to use them on a regular basis instead of your brakes ........ jmho & I'm sticking to it :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:............. Mike :thumbup:

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Also not to mention much easier to work on and results in a lot less of an expensive repair / maintenance situation!!!!!!!

i use engine compression and clutch (manual) all the time. I prefer to have brakes left when ryding in the hills. I have to say that most of us manual users ryde this way from past style and better control. I have gotten out of harms way more than once by being able to slide the clutch, rev and pop the clutch something I can not do with a semi auto. Down hill coasting is another plus, but I digress...Materials used now-a-days are way better and last a lot longer. As I see here there are way more brake pads being changed than clutch plates. if you are used to a certain way of ryding and downshifting you should ryde that way. The semi auto will only allow you a certain rpm for the downshift anyway....:thumbup:

IF, as some seem to suggest, engine braking is essentially a bad practice, it seems to me that BOTH the auto down-shift and I are doing precisely the same thing - perhaps just at different times/rev counts. The SE6 automatically brings itself down from upper gears when the rider slows; I do exactly the same thing, only I tell it 'when', rather than waiting for the computer. The number of downshifts is the same in either case; I don't add anything to the shift-change count. There is no added wear from use. Perhaps there could be additional strain because I'm not supposedly as 'shift smart' as the computer. BUT, is the supposed strain on the engine/tranny that much different when using the power plant as a brake as opposed to when you use it to take off? That was the real essence of my question. I'm not doing 'jack rabbit' high rev rubber-burning starts; nor am I doing abrupt, jerky, high rev downshifts or over-taxing the system. I try to downshift smoothly without having the tach needle jump excitedly all over the place. I simply choose to do it slightly in advance of where the computer would. It's kind of the reverse of ignoring the built-in eco-mode up-shift system, which many seem to dislike and ignore. To me, shifting, accelerating/decelerating (without making believe I'm on a race track or chasing a medal) is half the fun of ryding; just like a winding road. And maybe just a little bit of me choosing to 'free shift' rather than be computer controlled. What goes up must come down, and if we can be smart enough to know when to gear up, can we not also be smart enough to be able to gear down? To each his own poison.

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Originally Posted by bushrat

IF, as some seem to suggest, engine braking is essentially a bad practice, it seems to me that BOTH the auto down-shift and I are doing precisely the same thing - perhaps just at different times/rev counts. The SE6 automatically brings itself down from upper gears when the rider slows; I do exactly the same thing, only I tell it 'when', rather than waiting for the computer. The number of downshifts is the same in either case; I don't add anything to the shift-change count. There is no added wear from use. Perhaps there could be additional strain because I'm not supposedly as 'shift smart' as the computer. BUT, is the supposed strain on the engine/tranny that much different when using the power plant as a brake as opposed to when you use it to take off? That was the real essence of my question. I'm not doing 'jack rabbit' high rev rubber-burning starts; nor am I doing abrupt, jerky, high rev downshifts or over-taxing the system. I try to downshift smoothly without having the tach needle jump excitedly all over the place. I simply choose to do it slightly in advance of where the computer would. It's kind of the reverse of ignoring the built-in eco-mode up-shift system, which many seem to dislike and ignore. To me, shifting, accelerating/decelerating (without making believe I'm on a race track or chasing a medal) is half the fun of ryding; just like a winding road. And maybe just a little bit of me choosing to 'free shift' rather than be computer controlled. What goes up must come down, and if we can be smart enough to know when to gear up, can we not also be smart enough to be able to gear down? To each his own poison.

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Dear Mr. Bushrat : I noticed two things .... #1, you didn't Thank or Like ...any of the answers given and they covered Everything you just stated above............. and #2. You asked for Opinions ................ So my question is - What did you expect ?????? ................... Mike :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by bushrat

Have been reading many other posts with suggestions about 'best' shifting practices to be followed. As a new owner of a 2017 F3L, I have been trying to 'learn' where my ryde feels best when slowing up. My background has been several sports cars over time, and a 250 Suzuki 'Hustler' 35 years ago, where manual downshifting and keeping revs up (moderately) was a long-standing habit. My 2017 F3L SE6 can do all the necessary downshifting by itself and, at first, I let it do its own thing. However, as I become more accustomed to it, and with my riding becoming faster as the miles progress, I seem to sense that the automatic downshifting takes place later and slower than I would instinctively do manually. The old sports car debate used to be - which do you want to wear out first: your clutch or your brakes? Aggressive down-shifters would gamble on their clutch; others just braked harder and more often.

My point with my new F3 is: left to myself, I'm inclined to approach my stops and slow-downs by twitching my left index finger and run down through the gears more so than by braking. So far, it works very smoothly, my brake pedal only comes into play very late, and by then I'm already down to 3rd or 2nd, without waiting for the computer. Usually, though, I let the computer do the final downshift to 1st. I find the computer-guided 'slows' to be rather late, and more jerky, especially that last downshift or two. Looking for experienced commentary on my technique; maybe I'll still have original brakes long after doing work on clutch or auto-shift paddle? Critical advice welcome; my feelings won't be hurt. I'm trying to learn from your experiences.

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I thought you were asking for opinions, so sorry if I misunderstood.

:D It's no big deal... thanks for asking, and enjoy your ride! :thumbup:

I AM remiss for not so far expressing my Thanks, and I do apologize. I'm on-line on an intermittent basis. I was expecting/hoping for more continuing friendly debate, and I do sincerely appreciate the input. I'm catching up on a lot of lost years, and may indeed have to change some past practice. My feelings have not been hurt by the rebukes. I'm sorry if your sensitivities are. Indeed, I think if you look at a couple of other posts that I originated, I have been meticulous in going back to Thank each and every respondent. And, I'll take care of that here, forthwith. I do believe in friendly exchange, and strong, well-supported opinions. There was no wish or intent to antagonize, nor ignore.

I'm still hoping that someone with far more technical/mechanical experience than I will ever have to pose an answer to:

"is the supposed strain on the engine/tranny that much different when using the power plant as a brake as opposed to when you use it to take off? That was the real essence of my question."

:clap: That's cool... :clap:

On looooooong downhills, like from the top of Pikes Peak, there are signs reminding motorists to use lower gears than ride the brakes. How does the SE work at holding a gear? Does it require you to ride the brakes or do you manually force a downshift? In which case you are using engine braking and clutch.

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Originally Posted by asp125

On looooooong downhills, like from the top of Pikes Peak, there are signs reminding motorists to use lower gears than ride the brakes. How does the SE work at holding a gear? Does it require you to ride the brakes or do you manually force a downshift? In which case you are using engine braking and clutch.

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Not Pikes Peak .... but Mt Washington in NH ..... myself and " IGETAROUND " Al Faust , did it .... He had a manual ST .. I had an SE - RT ...... I had no problems with either the trans or brakes... We had to stop and let His brakes cool off , if memory serves me ........ maybe He'll chime in ....... Mike :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by asp125

On looooooong downhills, like from the top of Pikes Peak, there are signs reminding motorists to use lower gears than ride the brakes. How does the SE work at holding a gear? Does it require you to ride the brakes or do you manually force a downshift? In which case you are using engine braking and clutch.

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I go down the Hatcher Pass ride quite often. Thirteen miles or so downgrade, and some great twisties. I let the gears hold the bike. We both have SE's. Second and third work well. I never touch the brake--even for twisties. One exception--the 10 mph 180 degree loop turn half way down. We have learned to enjoy the scenic ride down at a leisure pace. :yes:

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Originally Posted by knobby

Just started on a 1000 mile loop to the Skyline Dr and The Blueridge (from Ohio) and we got 300 miles into our journey and our 2015 ST Limited downshifted (automatically) on a tight uphill corner and 'popped out of gear'?? Left us totally stranded in Maryland (we thought we were in West Virginia!). BRP Roadside offered $200 for towing but towing company wanted $500 to nearest dealer 100 miles away! Display indicated that it was shifting into reverse and 1st gear, but absolutely no 'clunk' and the engine would rev to the moon (no error codes and yes, the drive belt is perfectly intact). Bought the '15 ST new and it has 6000 miles on it.

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Just finished a 1300+ mile trip that included Skyline Drive and the Blue Ridge Parkway. Due to all the twisties I was aggressively downshifting the 2008 GS SE5 to slow around the turns. On the third day I got a check transmission message scrolling across the screen. I immediately changed to braking instead of downshifting and the message cleared within one hour. Needless to say I change my driving style to braking and the message has not returned. I only manually downshift when absolutely needed.

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Originally Posted by bushrat

I AM remiss for not so far expressing my Thanks, and I do apologize. I'm on-line on an intermittent basis. I was expecting/hoping for more continuing friendly debate, and I do sincerely appreciate the input. I'm catching up on a lot of lost years, and may indeed have to change some past practice. My feelings have not been hurt by the rebukes. I'm sorry if your sensitivities are. Indeed, I think if you look at a couple of other posts that I originated, I have been meticulous in going back to Thank each and every respondent. And, I'll take care of that here, forthwith. I do believe in friendly exchange, and strong, well-supported opinions. There was no wish or intent to antagonize, nor ignore.

I'm still hoping that someone with far more technical/mechanical experience than I will ever have to pose an answer to:

"is the supposed strain on the engine/tranny that much different when using the power plant as a brake as opposed to when you use it to take off? That was the real essence of my question."

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Engine braking is the result of vacuum, the opposite of building pressure from explosions (accelerating) at high rpm's. I'm no "rocket scientist" (or mechanic) but the way my deductive/logical mind envisions engine braking is: You're not generating heat or positive pressure, but your still circulating cooling and oil in a 4-stroke engine. And also, engine braking results in relatively smooth/controlled deceleration too. So, I can't see how "engine braking" can be bad. (As a result of vacuum, engine braking is also trying to suck oil past the piston rings, and the extra lubrication is a good thing. ~ You should be checking your oil level occasionally anyways.) In fact, if I were a gambling man: i'd put my money on "engine braking" being a good thing. ~ Waiting to be corrected here, so someone else please help us out here! :2thumbs:

I have D/S'd through the gears since we got our 14' RTSE6 and we now have 42k on it with no problems. Doing the same on my '17 F3SE6 Daytona. Sometimes, I won't touch the brakes until I am down to less than 10 mph and then just to stop the roll. Oh, and yeah, I watch the cages behind me to make sure they are aware of my slowing down. If not, tapping the brake works...

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Originally Posted by Chupaca

i use engine compression and clutch (manual) all the time. I prefer to have brakes left when ryding in the hills. I have to say that most of us manual users ryde this way from past style and better control. I have gotten out of harms way more than once by being able to slide the clutch, rev and pop the clutch something I can not do with a semi auto. Down hill coasting is another plus, but I digress...Materials used now-a-days are way better and last a lot longer. As I see here there are way more brake pads being changed than clutch plates. if you are used to a certain way of ryding and downshifting you should ryde that way. The semi auto will only allow you a certain rpm for the downshift anyway....:thumbup:

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:agree: I guess there are a few of us who do this way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bushrat

IF, as some seem to suggest, engine braking is essentially a bad practice, it seems to me that BOTH the auto down-shift and I are doing precisely the same thing - perhaps just at different times/rev counts. The SE6 automatically brings itself down from upper gears when the rider slows; I do exactly the same thing, only I tell it 'when', rather than waiting for the computer. The number of downshifts is the same in either case; I don't add anything to the shift-change count. There is no added wear from use. Perhaps there could be additional strain because I'm not supposedly as 'shift smart' as the computer. BUT, is the supposed strain on the engine/tranny that much different when using the power plant as a brake as opposed to when you use it to take off? That was the real essence of my question. I'm not doing 'jack rabbit' high rev rubber-burning starts; nor am I doing abrupt, jerky, high rev downshifts or over-taxing the system. I try to downshift smoothly without having the tach needle jump excitedly all over the place. I simply choose to do it slightly in advance of where the computer would. It's kind of the reverse of ignoring the built-in eco-mode up-shift system, which many seem to dislike and ignore. To me, shifting, accelerating/decelerating (without making believe I'm on a race track or chasing a medal) is half the fun of ryding; just like a winding road. And maybe just a little bit of me choosing to 'free shift' rather than be computer controlled. What goes up must come down, and if we can be smart enough to know when to gear up, can we not also be smart enough to be able to gear down? To each his own poison.

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I agree with you in that I can initiate a curve better if I can downshift (slightly) before the bike would do so and slightly lower into the curve. This seems to work best for me and my riding practice.

Thanks for starting this. It's answered a lot of questions by riders who I know have a lot of sense (except Mike, of course:yes:).

Pete

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Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911

Dear Mr. Bushrat : I noticed two things .... #1, you didn't Thank or Like ...any of the answers given and they covered Everything you just stated above............. and #2. You asked for Opinions ................ So my question is - What did you expect ?????? ................... Mike :thumbup:

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I have read this thread with interest as I have only been riding for a week and was wondering about the manual shifting points for both up and down shifts. Some of my upshifts under gentle acceleration go in with a big CLUNK and then next time the same style upshift seems to go in silently, what is the knack that I am missing ? I find that around the town I don't really need to brake until the last few meters as the engine braking seems to slow me down enough but I am starting to be concerned that other road users don't know I am slowing down during engine braking ( no manual braking so no brake light). What do you more experienced riders do ? It has been good to hear others thoughts and opinions:thumbup:

Can somebody tell me how the likes / thanks work please, I have seen them but don't know how to use them, cheers Rigsby

Rigsby...adding a gear brake will signal cagers behind to the fact you are slowing down even before applying your brakes.