2011 RS SE5 Won't start/shift to Neutral - anyone have shifter wiring schematics?

I went to fire my bike up the other day, and it wouldn't start. I noticed the neutral light was not on and assumed I might have shut it off last time I rode it without shifting into neutral. I turned the ignition off and pulled back on the paddle assuming it was in gear. Nothing happened. I tried manually shifting it into neutral by rotating the gear shift lever below the front sprocket with a 13mm wrench, but it wouldn't budge. I disconnected the gear shifting rod from the shifting lever and shifted it into neutral no problem. Bike fired right up. I warmed it up, shut it off, and checked the oil. It was full. I tried shifting it with the rod disconnected but it barely moved when I tried to shift into reverse. Nothing when I tried to put it in gear. I checked the fuses in the frunk. They were all good. The digital display doesn't display on my bike, but I assumed it would have an error code if it did. I tried to shift it into neutral again using a 13mm wrench, but once again it wouldn't budge. If I was to get it refired and into gear, would it hurt it to upshift it manually with the shift shaft disconnected? If I can't figure out why the electric shift no longer works. Any thoughts on the subject?

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

I went to fire my bike up the other day, and it wouldn't start. I noticed the neutral light was not on and assumed I might have shut it off last time I rode it without shifting into neutral. I turned the ignition off and pulled back on the paddle assuming it was in gear. Nothing happened. I tried manually shifting it into neutral by rotating the gear shift lever below the front sprocket with a 13mm wrench, but it wouldn't budge. I disconnected the shifting rod from the lever, replaced the lever, and shifted it into neutral no problem. Bike fired right up. I warmed it up, shut it off, and checked the oil. It was full. I tried shifting it with the rod disconnected but it barely moved when I tried to shift into reverse. Nothing when I tried to put it in gear. I checked the fuses in the frunk. They were all good. I reconnected the shaft, raised the back wheel, and shifted it into reverse manually with the motor running. It worked as it should but then it shut off and the emergency flashers came on. The digital display doesn't display on my bike, but I assumed it would have an error code if it did. I tried to shift it into neutral again using a 13mm wrench, but once again it wouldn't budge. If I was to get it refired and into gear, would it hurt it to upshift it manually with the shift shaft disconnected? If I can't figure out why the electric shift no longer works, I'm thing about rigging a jockey shift up. Any thoughts on the subject?

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I have experienced this also ..... After I bought my New 2014 RT in Ill, I had to drive it home to Vermont. I stopped for some food, and it wouldn't start (it wasn't in neutral ) .... A kind fellow stopped and asked my problem, he said he had jumper cables and we hooked them to the Spyder ..... His vehicle was off, and as soon as I turned the key mine fired right up. After this I ALWAYS made sure it was in neutral before I shut it off. Over a few years I noticed my Spyder always took longer to Start than my girlfriends 2014 RT. What I believed to be the cause was the selling dealer didn't do the initial charge properly and my battery was weak because of this... I believe that if you have a weak battery, it may not start if left in gear ... I have told this story here before and was told "This could not cause the No start issue" ..... So try this, first make sure the battery terminals are tight (they should have STAR washers on them), then use jumper cables to a car battery (in a car that's off) Foot on the brake, and see if it starts. .... If it does, have the battery "load tested" at a parts store. ... let us know how you make out .... Mike :thumbup:

Understanding is the SE defaults to N at start up. You were able to move manually helps but Sorry does not rule out splines being stripped on shift arm. Going into gear without proper input or RPM & addition of front tires not moving likely cause for shut off & flashers. (Yes, probably a code hidden somewhere & an E on the dash in the gear position). A good, fully charged battery with clean tight connections is always helpful. When was last oil & filters change? Maybe you want to consider acquiring a spare shift arm, just-in-case. Unfortunately, I'm on my 3rd arm with just lazy casual ryding. Yours might just need a lil' inspection & tightening :dontknow: :lecturef_smilie: That arm/spline is soft metal & will strip all to easily. Good Luck. :popcorn:

Load test your battery..

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Originally Posted by Bfromla

Understanding is the SE defaults to N at start up. You were able to move manually helps but Sorry does not rule out splines being stripped on shift arm. Going into gear without proper input or RPM & addition of front tires not moving likely cause for shut off & flashers. (Yes, probably a code hidden somewhere & an E on the dash in the gear position). A good, fully charged battery with clean tight connections is always helpful. When was last oil & filters change? Maybe you want to consider acquiring a spare shift arm, just-in-case. Unfortunately, I'm on my 3rd arm with just lazy casual ryding. Yours might just need a lil' inspection & tightening :dontknow: :lecturef_smilie: That arm/spline is soft metal & will strip all to easily. Good Luck. :popcorn:

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I checked the splines. They're fine. Probably been less than 1000 since the last oil and filter change. Oil still looks clean and clear. I'm pretty sure the hydraulic shifting happening on the motor or the paddle shifter itself is the problem. Could be one of the rear fuses. I haven't checked them yet.

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Originally Posted by Mikey

Load test your battery..

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I don't think the battery is the problem. After I manually shifted it into neutral it fired right up.

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

I don't think the battery is the problem. After I manually shifted it into neutral it fired right up.

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Yep, that's possibly cos there was no longer any load on what sounds like a tired battery as it tried to shift the gearbox into neutral via the electro-solenoids at the same time as spinning the starter &/or starting up all the computers... :banghead:

Hence the suggestion to load test your battery - what you've described is pretty much exactly what happens to the SE's if you've shut it down in gear and the battery is getting a bit tired. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

I don't think the battery is the problem. After I manually shifted it into neutral it fired right up.

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Yes, it may not seem like a good thing to do, but you have to start somewhere, and these bikes do not work well without a fully charged system! You have already taken the shift arm off and checked for stripped shaft and put it back on tight, so that's ok. You have checked your fluids, they're ok! You have fettled around and got it to run and shift, and it's still acting up! I would take it and have the battery load tested to make sure the battery's where it should be and in good working order, if that checks out ok, then you may have a problem in the shift controls itself, a few people on here have had that problem! :dontknow: I personal like knocking the easy stuff off first, electrical gremlins are the worst things in my book to chase. That system works great, why would you want to hook a jockey shifter up? Good Luck I hope you find the problem soon! :2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by Mikey

Yes, it may not seem like a good thing to do, but you have to start somewhere, and these bikes do not work well without a fully charged system! You have already taken the shift arm off and checked for stripped shaft and put it back on tight, so that's ok. You have checked your fluids, they're ok! You have fettled around and got it to run and shift, and it's still acting up! I would take it and have the battery load tested to make sure the battery's where it should be and in good working order, if that checks out ok, then you may have a problem in the shift controls itself, a few people on here have had that problem! :dontknow: I personal like knocking the easy stuff off first, electrical gremlins are the worst things in my book to chase. That system works great, why would you want to hook a jockey shifter up? Good Luck I hope you find the problem soon! :2thumbs:

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I decided to fix it right. I'll pull the battery out and have it tested asap.

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Originally Posted by Peter Aawen

Yep, that's possibly cos there was no longer any load on what sounds like a tired battery as it tried to shift the gearbox into neutral via the electro-solenoids at the same time as spinning the starter &/or starting up all the computers... :banghead:

Hence the suggestion to load test your battery - what you've described is pretty much exactly what happens to the SE's if you've shut it down in gear and the battery is getting a bit tired. :thumbup:

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I'll give it a shot but that doesn't explain why it won't shift into reverse of first gear with the engine warmed up and running.

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

I'll give it a shot but that doesn't explain why it won't shift into reverse of first gear with the engine warmed up and running.

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OK you've checked some things out and are working ..... I also had a 2011 with an SE trans. and it went south :gaah:, but only showed CODES ... it did function .... My Dealer claimed they couldn't find the issue .... At SpyderFest in 2014 the BRP Tech Team LOOKED IT UP and discovered 214 stored CODES - OMG how could this be :roflblack: .... They said the Paddle shifter needed re-placing .... They didn't have one, but would contact my dealer and get it fixed after I got home ...... Soooooooooooooooo I went to a gas station and put 46 PSI in the front tires lowered the rear to 10 ( auto tire ) headed to the Rogersville Drag track and took home a :firstplace::yes: trophy ..... good luck ... Mike :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911

OK you've checked some things out and are working ..... I also had a 2011 with an SE trans. and it went south :gaah:, but only showed CODES ... it did function .... My Dealer claimed they couldn't find the issue .... At SpyderFest in 2014 the BRP Tech teAM LOOKED IT and discovered 214 stored CODES - OMG how could this be :roflblack: .... They said the Paddle shifter needed re-placing .... They didn't have one, but would contact my dealer and get it fixed after I got home ...... Soooooooooooooooo I went to a gas station and put 46 PSI in the front tires lowered the rear to 10 ( auto tire ) headed to the Rogersville Drag track and took home a :firstplace::yes: trophy ..... good luck ... Mike :thumbup:

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I suspect the paddle shifter might be the problem. If the battery isn't the problem I'll disect the paddle shifter and see what makes it tick.

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

I suspect the paddle shifter might be the problem. If the battery isn't the problem I'll dissect the paddle shifter and see what makes it tick.

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I'd still be checking the battery first Cadaverdog, it's cheap (if not free) & relatively easy and is responsible for MANY of these sorts of issues simply because these Spyder things are notoriously power hungry and what you've described is most often remedied by a new & properly charged battery, only while you'd usually watch for the 'under load' voltage dropping below about 10.5 volts, in my experience with Spyders, if the load test shows the under load/starting volts drop anything much below about 12 volts AT ALL, then your battery just isn't up to the task &/or meeting your Spyder's power demands on start up! :lecturef_smilie:

However, if it is the paddle shifter, there's a few threads you can find on the Forum about people dissecting that unit and attempting to fix/modify things in there if you do a bit of a search; only IIRC, pretty much all of them ended up being unsuccessful in the long run. So I'd think that if the internals of the paddle shifter have had it/aren't working properly, then apart from replacing the entire LH Control Module/Handgrip, that jockey shifter you were considering might be an option, but only IF you can work out how to trigger all the ECM/electrical bits that need to occur at the same as the gear selection and would normally be triggered by the paddle shifter!?! :rolleyes:

Good Luck! :cheers:

Late thought there were few managed to reverse the HCM filter & other problems filter related.

Checked the battery. It was fine. After disconnecting the gear shift level I got it to manually shift into neutral again using a 13mm wrench. Bike fired up but nothing happens when I try to put it in gear using the handlebar controls. I'm going to take the paddle shifter apart next. I still think I could bypass the HCM completely by figuring out a way to manually move the gear shift lever with the shaft from the HCM disconnected. My thought is the SE5 transmission is basically an automatic transmission with a manual valve body. The hydralic clutch is basically the same thing as a torque converter. I could hook up a B&M Quick click shifter to it.

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

Checked the battery. It was fine. After disconnecting the gear shift level I got it to manually shift into neutral again using a 13mm wrench. Bike fired up but nothing happens when I try to put it in gear using the handlebar controls. I'm going to take the paddle shifter apart next. I still think I could bypass the HCM completely by figuring out a way to manually move the gear shift lever with the shaft from the HCM disconnected. My thought is the SE5 transmission is basically an automatic transmission with a manual valve body. The hydralic clutch is basically the same thing as a torque converter. I could hook up a B&M Quick click shifter to it.

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Well everything I've read ( here ) about the SE 5 and SE 6 trans. is they are MANUAL transmissions but use solenoids ( ? ) to accomplish the shifting. .....what say you Peter >>>>> Mike :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

Checked the battery. It was fine. After disconnecting the gear shift level I got it to manually shift into neutral again using a 13mm wrench. Bike fired up but nothing happens when I try to put it in gear using the handlebar controls. I'm going to take the paddle shifter apart next. I still think I could bypass the HCM completely by figuring out a way to manually move the gear shift lever with the shaft from the HCM disconnected. My thought is the SE5 transmission is basically an automatic transmission with a manual valve body. The hydralic clutch is basically the same thing as a torque converter. I could hook up a B&M Quick click shifter to it.

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Yeah, NO! :lecturef_smilie:

The SE5's (& the SE6's too, for that matter! ;) ) are basically the same MANUAL transmission as the SM's only with electro-solenoid activated Quick-shifters triggered by the paddle shifter; and in the SE5's teamed with the high revving V-Twins, the addition of a Centrifugal Clutch that requires about 3400 RPM in the way of engine revs to fully engage; while the SE6's teamed with the 1330 motors have an engine oil pressure activated hydraulic clutch!! The Spyder's SE Transmissions are NOTHING like an automatic transmission at all, with or without a manual valve body; and their clutches are nothing like what you'd know as an automobile's auto trans torque converter either! :rolleyes:

They AREN'T automatic gearboxes by any stretch of the description; both the SE5's & SE6's are fully MANUAL gearboxes with the addition of sexy paddle shift activated electro-solenoid driven quick shifting arrangements built in & an 'automatic' clutch as outlined above that'll allow all the electro-solenoid quick shifting stuff to work... ;)

They won't & can't shift UP automatically at all, you MUST initiate the upshifts yourself via the paddle shifter; and the 'auto' part of the downshift is really just a 'fail-safe feature' intended to make sure that you change down when you stop; that you can't twist the throttle hard & pour too much power/torque into the trans while you're still in too high a gear for your given road speed/engine revs; nor can you try to pull away from a stop while still in a high gear & thereby fry the clutch &/or possibly damage the MANUAL gearbox! :thumbup:

Just Sayin' :cheers:

But when you say you 'checked the battery', what exactly did you do, & what voltages did you get resting, under load, and while running?? :dontknow:

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Originally Posted by Peter Aawen

Yeah, NO! :lecturef_smilie:

The SE5's (& the SE6's too, for that matter! ;) ) are basically the same MANUAL transmission as the SM's only with electro-solenoid activated Quick-shifters triggered by the paddle shifter; and in the SE5's teamed with the high revving V-Twins, the addition of a Centrifugal Clutch that requires about 3400 RPM in the way of engine revs to fully engage; while the SE6's teamed with the 1330 motors have an engine oil pressure activated hydraulic clutch!! The Spyder's SE Transmissions are NOTHING like an automatic transmission at all, with or without a manual valve body; and their clutches are nothing like what you'd know as an automobile's auto trans torque converter either! :rolleyes:

They AREN'T automatic gearboxes by any stretch of the description; both the SE5's & SE6's are fully MANUAL gearboxes with the addition of sexy paddle shift activated electro-solenoid driven quick shifting arrangements built in & an 'automatic' clutch as outlined above that'll allow all the electro-solenoid quick shifting stuff to work... ;)

They won't & can't shift UP automatically at all, you MUST initiate the upshifts yourself via the paddle shifter; and the 'auto' part of the downshift is really just a 'fail-safe feature' intended to make sure that you change down when you stop; that you can't twist the throttle hard & pour too much power/torque into the trans while you're still in too high a gear for your given road speed/engine revs; nor can you try to pull away from a stop while still in a high gear & thereby fry the clutch &/or possibly damage the MANUAL gearbox! :thumbup:

Just Sayin' :cheers:

But when you say you 'checked the battery', what exactly did you do, & what voltages did you get resting, under load, and while running?? :dontknow:

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I took it to my mechanic. He's a car/truck/tractor mechanic by trade but he works on bikes too. He has a battery and alternator tester like they use at auto parts store like Auto Zone and O Reilly's.

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Originally Posted by Peter Aawen

The Spyder's SE Transmissions are NOTHING like an automatic transmission at all, with or without a manual valve body; and their clutches are nothing like what you'd know as an automobile's auto trans torque converter either! :rolleyes:

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Let me clarify my comment. What I meant was they can be shifted like an automatic with a manual valve body as in you shift it manually without depressing a clutch pedal.

I had the spline worn out on my shift arm with my 2011 RT-S. It went crazy. Would crank then shut off or run rough, Would not go into any gear. The shift arm really did not look that bad but its soft metal. You can order a new arm from the internet. Good luck.
Leon

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

Let me clarify my comment. What I meant was they can be shifted like an automatic with a manual valve body as in you shift it manually without depressing a clutch pedal. My knowledge of car transmissions is pretty dated. And I was never a transmission mechanic. I could replace them, service them, etc. but I never tried rebuilding one. I had plenty of friends that were transmission mechanics.

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That’s just not true either, Dog. Every time you or the computer shifts the SE5 gearbox, the Hydraulic Control Module momentarily disengages and reengages the clutch. You’d have to be pretty good at throttle blipping to jury rig your bike to shift without a command from the Transmission Control Module. And what do you think is going to happen when the computers see that the gearbox is shifting without a command to shift? Dozens of codes and Limp Home Mode. Maybe take a breath and learn how this thing works.

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Originally Posted by Snowbelt Spyder

ThatÂ’s just not true either, Dog. Every time you or the computer shifts the SE5 gearbox, the Hydraulic Control Module momentarily disengages and reengages the clutch. YouÂ’d have to be pretty good at throttle blipping to jury rig your bike to shift without a command from the Transmission Control Module. And what do you think is going to happen when the computers see that the gearbox is shifting without a command to shift? Dozens of codes and Limp Home Mode. Maybe take a breath and learn how this thing works.

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Some of the other people who have chimed in said it has a centrifugal clutch. I had the rear wheel off the ground and manually shifted it into reverse with the motor running no problem with my brother holding the brake but I didn't try shifting it into first gear. My next step is to see if I can find some wiring diagrams. Even though none of the fuses were blown I suspect the problem is no power or not enough power to the shifting solenoids or the paddle shifter.

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Originally Posted by Leaping1

I had the spline worn out on my shift arm with my 2011 RT-S. It went crazy. Would crank then shut off or run rough, Would not go into any gear. The shift arm really did not look that bad but its soft metal. You can order a new arm from the internet. Good luck.
Leon

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One of the first things I checked.

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Originally Posted by Cadaverdog

Some of the other people who have chimed in said it has a centrifugal clutch. I had the rear wheel off the ground and manually shifted it into reverse with the motor running no problem with my brother holding the brake but I didn't try shifting it into first gear. My next step is to see if I can find some wiring diagrams. Even though none of the fuses were blown I suspect the problem is no power or not enough power to the shifting solenoids or the paddle shifter.
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They Do! The SE5's, anyway! ;) But they also have that sexy and 'fully integrated into the computer control system, electro-solenoid operated, paddle-shifter initiated, quick-shifting gear change system', and now that I've looked into it a little deeper, THAT'S what'd make fitting a manual, non-computerised, jockey shifter so bloody hard! :banghead:

Not saying that it can't be done with enough time, effort, and $$; but seriously, you'd hafta sort out all the 'integration' bits if you wanted to avoid the trauma that Snowbelt warns about... :lecturef_smilie: And for anyone trying to do that who's not intimately acquainted with BRP's Spyder Computer Control Systems & all the various Modules; the ECM, TCM, HCM, & more; as well as their Spyder wiring & probably the CanBus too, then that won't be 'easy' by any stretch of the imagination or any definition of the word!! :shocked: And I'd also guess that if you decided to take the alternate route and head down the path of paying someone who knows the system well enough to do it in a workable manner, you'll probably find it cheaper just to buy a whole new Spyder!! :gaah:

Just Sayin' - now that I've looked into it, I really don't think fitting a Jockey Shifter would be in any way an easy option or a good solution to the problem you've described to us! :dontknow:

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Originally Posted by Peter Aawen

They Do! The SE5's, anyway! ;)

Just Sayin' - now that I've looked into it, I really don't think fitting a Jockey Shifter would be in any way an easy option or a good solution to the problem you've described to us! :dontknow:

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After further thought on the subject I decided to try to fix it properly instead of taking a chance **** rigging it and tearing up the transmission. I can put it in gear manually because the RPMs are below the locking up of the centrifugal clutch point but upshifting and downshifting above that point might damage the gears. I'm pretty sure the problem lies in the paddle shifter or power to the paddle shifter. I ordered a service manual today. Hopefully I can figure this out myself. I'm having a new transmission installed in my Dodge Ram and funds are kind of tight right now. I owe too much on my current bike to trade it in or sell it. Buying a newer Spyder isn't an option at this time.

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Originally Posted by Peter Aawen

They Do! The SE5's, anyway! ;) But they also have that sexy and 'fully integrated into the computer control system, electro-solenoid operated, paddle-shifter initiated, quick-shifting gear change system', and now that I've looked into it a little deeper, THAT'S what'd make fitting a manual, non-computerised, jockey shifter so bloody hard! :banghead:

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As I said in my previous post I'm going to try to fix it the right way first.